Someone on Jets staff is gonna be in trouble

['canes2004]

.I just hate how the league coddles the Dolphins when they whine about something.

 

 

Very funny Keggie.

[detlef]

That's... exactly what an analogy is:

 

And your Burress analogy is a very poor one.

 

 

Glad I'm not the drunk one tonight...

 

Go back and read through the posts again, bud. I know you won't, but I really didn't say anything about jail time.

FYI, the Burress reference is a fine example.

 

Try this. Two guys both drive home drunk. One guy slams into a parked car that has nobody in it. One slams into a parked car that has someone in it and kills them. Guy one gets a DWI and whatever comes with thrashing someone's car. The other guy gets vehicular manslaughter. Both had the exact same intent. To drive home rather than catch a cab.

 

So, even if Burress had no intention of shooting someone, had he inadvertently done so (maybe he drops the gun and it discharges upon hitting the ground), he's in more trouble than he was for merely taking out his own foot. Regardless of intent. Just like the drunk driver. He didn't set out to kill someone. He just did something very wrong that resulted in someone getting killed.

 

Same goes here. Assuming you can't prove that this guy was specifically trying to injure the player and was merely trying to trip him, you have to charge accordingly. Unless, despite not trying to hurt him, he managed to do so, than you increase the punishment.

[skylive5]

Suspended without pay and 25K.

 

From the concensus here that falls far short of taking him out and shooting him but sounds about fair.

[keggerz]

FYI, the Burress reference is a fine example.

 

Try this. Two guys both drive home drunk. One guy slams into a parked car that has nobody in it. One slams into a parked car that has someone in it and kills them. Guy one gets a DWI and whatever comes with thrashing someone's car. The other guy gets vehicular manslaughter. Both had the exact same intent. To drive home rather than catch a cab.

 

So, even if Burress had no intention of shooting someone, had he inadvertently done so (maybe he drops the gun and it discharges upon hitting the ground), he's in more trouble than he was for merely taking out his own foot. Regardless of intent. Just like the drunk driver. He didn't set out to kill someone. He just did something very wrong that resulted in someone getting killed.

 

Same goes here. Assuming you can't prove that this guy was specifically trying to injure the player and was merely trying to trip him, you have to charge accordingly. Unless, despite not trying to hurt him, he managed to do so, than you increase the punishment.

that is a great analogy.

[overworkedirish]

that is a great analogy.

It's a great analogy - for the BURRESS CASE. Not for the Alosi case. Hitting a car with no one in it is like saying Alosi stuck his foot out when no one was there. Nolan Carroll got tripped. i.e. there was someone in the car, regardless of grievous injury.

 

Here's an analogy for Alosi:

Without provocation, a cop hits a guy in the head with his night stick. The guy is fine, but has a bruise and sues the cop for assault.

 

In a parallel universe, the same cop hits the same guy in the head with his night stick. The guy goes into a seizure, chips his tooth, and falls down some stairs, but still comes out alive. And sues the cop for assault.

 

It's still assault. Would the cop have to pay for medical bills for the more physically injured guy? Yes. BUT so would Alosi if Nolan Carroll got seriously injured. The difference based on the consequence is there, but at a different level of injury, not in the fact that it was an assault.

[detlef]

It's a great analogy - for the BURRESS CASE. Not for the Alosi case. Hitting a car with no one in it is like saying Alosi stuck his foot out when no one was there. Nolan Carroll got tripped. i.e. there was someone in the car, regardless of grievous injury.

 

Here's an analogy for Alosi:

Without provocation, a cop hits a guy in the head with his night stick. The guy is fine, but has a bruise and sues the cop for assault.

 

In a parallel universe, the same cop hits the same guy in the head with his night stick. The guy goes into a seizure, chips his tooth, and falls down some stairs, but still comes out alive. And sues the cop for assault.

 

It's still assault. Would the cop have to pay for medical bills for the more physically injured guy? Yes. BUT so would Alosi if Nolan Carroll got seriously injured. The difference based on the consequence is there, but at a different level of injury, not in the fact that it was an assault.

Any lawyer worth a damned could see to it that there would be a huge difference in the outcome of those two assault cases.

 

"And this, members of the jury, is why we simply cannot tolerate the use of excessive force by our police, because you simply cannot predict what will happen when you start beating on someone's head with a club. Will you just bruise him? Possibly. Or will you cause a string of events that results in massive trauma that has made it so my client can't live his life in the same way he used to. And it is because of this that a message must be sent with this case right here. We've seen right here before us how bad it can get when a policeman needlessly beats a citizen with his club." and so on.

 

Again, the worse the outcome, unforseen or intended, the worse the punishment. This is not new. That's why attempted murder does not carry the same punishment as murder. In both cases, you are very much trying to kill the person. If you, however, manage to do so, you're going to face a more serious punishment.

[Chief Dick]

If they want to punish the guy they should just make him hand wash Rex Ryan's underwear.

[Rovers]

Logic will not affect this Phins gill licker. It's all about his blind homerism and hatred for the Jets. He wouldn't even be in this thread if it didn't involve these two teams. He's in a blind rage. Let's not even suggest that Carroll took a dive. He laid there some a long time for a guy who missed 3 minutes of the third quarter, and was just fine and dandy in the 4th. Carroll didn't even grab at any part of his body while he writhed around in mind numbing pain. He also walked off with no noticable limp. I even wonder if it was the Phins that planned to try to get an interference call on that play.

[overworkedirish]

Logic will not affect this Phins gill licker. It's all about his blind homerism and hatred for the Jets. He wouldn't even be in this thread if it didn't involve these two teams. He's in a blind rage. Let's not even suggest that Carroll took a dive. He laid there some a long time for a guy who missed 3 minutes of the third quarter, and was just fine and dandy in the 4th. Carroll didn't even grab at any part of his body while he writhed around in mind numbing pain. He also walked off with no noticable limp. I even wonder if it was the Phins that planned to try to get an interference call on that play.

Okay... MY blind homerism...

[overworkedirish]

"And this, members of the jury, is why we simply cannot tolerate the use of excessive force by our police, because you simply cannot predict what will happen when you start beating on someone's head with a club. Will you just bruise him? Possibly. Or will you cause a string of events that results in massive trauma that has made it so my client can't live his life in the same way he used to. And it is because of this that a message must be sent with this case right here. We've seen right here before us how bad it can get when a policeman needlessly beats a citizen with his club." and so on.

 

You realize this is the exact argument the NFL is making in order to justify the fines on these helmet-to-helmet hits, right? That's all I'm trying to get across. If you hold the players responsible for putting another player at risk, regardless of resultant injury, you have to hold Alosi equally responsible. The difference is of course, it's the players job to hit each other.

 

Either way, like I said, I'm satisfied with the $25K fine.

Edited December 14, 2010 by overworkedirish

[detlef]

You realize this is the exact argument the NFL is making in order to justify the fines on these helmet-to-helmet hits, right? That's all I'm trying to get across. If you hold the players responsible for putting another player at risk, regardless of resultant injury, you have to hold Alosi equally responsible. The difference is of course, it's the players job to hit each other.

 

Either way, like I said, I'm satisfied with the $25K fine.

I admit that I didn't read the entire thread. I must have missed the part where people were implying that dude should not be punished. I'll have to take your word for it.

[Swampnuts]

Guy made a stupid mistake. He made a split second bad decision and paid the price. I'd look at like when you pulled someone's chair out from behind them when they're sitting....you think it'll be hilarious for the split second until they actually hit the floor.

 

He manned up to it and took responsibility for his actions. I thought the apology he put out was far better than I've ever heard from an athlete.

[muck]

It's very possible that some of the delay in making a decision as to how to treat Alosi related to having the Jets attorneys look at the employment contract, consider NY employment law, the NFL rules, etc. before making any decision.

 

Those of you who were saying that NY wouldn't do something quickly have little sense for what goes on in unusual employment issues with big companies.

[Rovers]

I admit that I didn't read the entire thread. I must have missed the part where people were implying that dude should not be punished. I'll have to take your word for it.

 

No one ever said he should not be punished. Not even close. The Phin fan was arguing with himself at that point.

[HowboutthemCowboys]

I think the suspension OR the fine would have been sufficient

[overworkedirish]

I admit that I didn't read the entire thread. I must have missed the part where people were implying that dude should not be punished. I'll have to take your word for it.

As Rover says, no one implied that. This whole Haynesworth/Burress analogy garbage started prior to the release of the actual punishment, when people were arguing as to whether the punishment's severity would be based on the fact that Nolan Carroll was not injured. I was saying it was irrelevant because putting a player at risk like that, regardless of the result, should be treated the same way dangerous helmet-to-helmet hits are. It was your post which brought it back to the forefront.

Guy made a stupid mistake. He made a split second bad decision and paid the price. I'd look at like when you pulled someone's chair out from behind them when they're sitting....you think it'll be hilarious for the split second until they actually hit the floor.

I agree.

He manned up to it and took responsibility for his actions. I thought the apology he put out was far better than I've ever heard from an athlete.

Oh, please. He manned up because he got caught. Guy changed his hat on the sidelines immediately after the incident happened. He was ushered off by stadium security before the media could get ahold of him. His statement was written by Jets PR. Let's at least be real about this.

It's very possible that some of the delay in making a decision as to how to treat Alosi related to having the Jets attorneys look at the employment contract, consider NY employment law, the NFL rules, etc. before making any decision.

 

Those of you who were saying that NY wouldn't do something quickly have little sense for what goes on in unusual employment issues with big companies.

Very valid point.

Edited December 14, 2010 by overworkedirish

[rajncajn]

Alosi suspended indefinitely after team officials get new information that Alosi instructed players to stand in a wall.

 

The New York Jets have suspended Sal Alosi indefinitely after the team got "new information" that the strength and conditioning coach "instructed" five players to stand in a wall before he tripped a Dolphins player on Sunday.

 

Jets general manager Mike Tannenbaum announced the punishment after Alosi was suspended for the rest of the season and fined $25,000 on Monday.

 

"Over the last day as we continued our investigation we discovered some new information," Tannenbaum said. "The players at the Miami game were instructed by Sal to stand where they were forcing the gunner in the game to run around them. Based on that new information we've suspended Sal indefinitely, pending further review.

Edited December 15, 2010 by rajncajn

[overworkedirish]

Loyal till the end (of your suspension), eh, Sal? Way to take the fall for Westhoff/Ryan. Anyone who thinks a STRENGTH AND CONDITIONING coach instructed inactive players to do this and THEY LISTENED is nuts. Welcome to Jets cover-up 2010.

 

[separate paragraph for homerism] If the truth about this story ever gets out (i.e. who actually instructed them), I will officially piss myself with a beautiful blend of hatred and excitement.

[overworkedirish]

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2010/...all-of-players/

 

PFT:

 

The announcement came in a conference call with G.M. Mike Tannenbaum, who per Jenny Vrentas of the Newark Star-Ledger said that the Jets “discovered” that Alosi instructed players to form a wall on the sideline. Tannenbaum explained that players interviewed on Tuesday said that Alosi told them to stand next to each other.

 

...

 

It also appears that Alosi was dishonest with the media and, presumably, the team. “No, it wasn’t anything that was instructed,” Alosi said in a Monday press conference. “Our inactive players, our guys that don’t play, we try to keep those guys focused on the game. Root their players on. There was a double-vice that was right there on our sideline and we wanted to cheer on our guys.”

 

Tannenbaum said today that it’s a “big concern” that Alosi didn’t share all information with them on Monday. That’s a nice way of saying Alosi lied and, frankly, he needs to be fired because of it.

 

Employers need to be able to expect honesty from employees when investigating potential wrongdoing. When an employee is caught lying in connection with such matters, the decision unfortunately becomes very easy.

 

Moving forward, it’ll be interesting to see whether Alosi admits that it was all his idea, or whether he’ll point a finger at Ryan or Westhoff. Regardless of how it all turns out, we find it hard to believe that no one noticed what was happening, if Alosi was doing it for multiple games.

Edited December 15, 2010 by overworkedirish

[Rovers]

And the witch hunt continues. I say so freakin what even if it did come from Ryan. They were off the white apron and within the coaches box. This is some sort of cheating? Apparently the Miami gunners had been running so far out of bounds (and you can see from the replays that Carroll was at least a a couple of yards OUTSIDE the white apron for nearly 10 yards) Why not position a coach where Carroll is forced back onto the apron? It worked... and if Alosi hadn't stupidly stuck his knee out, this would never have even gotten a mention... because it wasn't illegal.

 

The refs never enforce the rule that states a gunner has to return to the field as soon as possible, and they never enforce any rule that defines who can stand in that area of the coaches box. If the Miami gunners were running even outside the white apron, which they were, I say good for the Jets to position a coach there. I'd do the same thing. They had reportedly already complained to the refs about it.

 

Much ado about nothing, other than the stupid act of Alosi's. And for the arguement that Alosi should not be on the sidelines, that ASSumes he doesn't have any game day coaching duties. He's been around football a long time. He could be doing anything from counting players on ST's to acting as a trainer for players with cramping hamstrings. He had a right to be positioned where he was.

Edited December 15, 2010 by Rovers

[overworkedirish]

I'm actually in 100% agreement with you, Rovers. It really isn't something that's ever been discussed on a rule level of which I've been aware, and I don't think the Jets team should be penalized for it retroactively. With the NFL's recent "memo," it's clear now they want people standing behind the second white line.

 

For ME at least, what is so jarring about this story now is the LYING about it, from Alosi, and possibly on up. If it's not wrong, then why is everyone acting like they innocently didn't know a thing? The fact that Alosi still has his job says to me that the Jets realized that if they fire him, he will point the blame squarely where it belongs. For now, they can keep it contained to him and throw him under the bus again. And howabout the fact that is a "Jets internal investigation." Now that Alosi has lied, it's time for the NFL to step in.

 

To continue the Jets meltdown, check out Westhoff's adamant denial followed by "Pats did it too!":

 

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2010/...eline-wall-too/

 

PFT:

 

Westhoff also reiterated his position that, as it relates to the Jets, “I had nothing to do with it” and “I didn’t even know we were doing it.” He admitted that “anything that happens on special teams is a reflection on me, that’s how I look at it, and I don’t teach it, I don’t coach it, I didn’t know we were doing it, but the fact that it happens I’ve got to get involved.”

 

...

 

That said, Westhoff has now implicated the Patriots. And we assume the Patriots will be responding.

 

...we’re having trouble reconciling Westhoff’s mixed signals regarding the situation. When discussing his belief that the Patriots do it, he acts like it’s no big deal. But he’s apparently offended by the suggestion that he instructed guys to stand on the edge of the white stripe but not try to trip opposing players.

[overworkedirish]

He had a right to be positioned where he was.

I think the argument some are making (and frankly it should be being made by the NFLPA...) is that his positioning, combined with his intent, put the players' health at risk, and that's unacceptable.

[Rovers]

Alosi lied, and that MUST mean it's Watergate, right? How about he admitted to it because the players he had with him told the FO that Alosi told them to stand there? Then he got caught, and admitted to doing it during the Jets internal investigation?

[overworkedirish]

Alosi lied, and that MUST mean it's Watergate, right? How about he admitted to it because the players he had with him told the FO that Alosi told them to stand there? Then he got caught, and admitted to doing it during the Jets internal investigation?

I don't know where you work, Rovers, but my experience in the workforce dictates that if you lie to your employer publicly and they subsequently find out, you get fired. No hesitation. That's what makes this "extended suspension" suspicious.

[rajncajn]

Since this is an internal suspension, I think the main issue the FO has about it is the fact that he flat out lied to everyone about telling the others to do it. Dude got thrown under the bus plain & simple. I only wonder if he will end up returning the favor.

Edited December 15, 2010 by rajncajn