westvirginia Posted August 9, 2011 Share Posted August 9, 2011 So have the poor pay more taxes? That is your plan? By "broadening the base" are you referring to having those on the lower end of the fiscal ladder pay taxes that currently do not because they dont make enough money? And then concurrently lower taxes for those HIGHER on the income ladder at the same time? Could you provide some backup as to how this would work to get our country of its fiscal difficulties it currently faces? If you reduced deductions/loopholes, that increases the BASE or pool of money subject to tax. Lower the rates for everyone. I'm not saying you can NEVER raise taxes, but your boy obamessiah has increased spending by some phenomenal amount in two years, and NOW there is no room for cuts? Bullsiht. And you can't just raise taxes with impunity bp. This doesn't happen in a vacuum. People change behavior when taxes are raised. Witness the mass exodus of the rich from places like NY, NJ, and CA. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brentastic Posted August 9, 2011 Share Posted August 9, 2011 +1 on buying equities now. The only thing I bought today was some QID and DOG. I'm not going to fight the trend. However, there is one stock I will buy and that is Apple. If AAPL hits $300 I am taking out a home equity loan and loading up the truck. I'm not touching my 401k, if Dow goes to 3k then so be it. I've been in cash and back into equities a couple of times in the last 5 years and it never seems to work out for me. I will dollar cost average and hope there is a recovery in the next 25 years Brent, where are you putting your money? If you think gold is in a bubble and the DOW is going to 3k are you ust sitting in cash and shorting? Personally, I still think gold has some legs left and am still buying. 1st bolded - Ok, you're fracking around, right? It's like telling a nun about your wildest drug-induced orgy. In case you are not joking, I would urge you not to do that. Once the market really starts accelerating its decline, the biggest the stock the harder they'll fall. If you can be patient, sit on cash and wait about 10 years (once a bottom and subsequent bull market is confirmed), then you will be able to buy stocks at premium discounts - assuming there is still a stock market around to invest in. 2nd bolded - yes Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brentastic Posted August 9, 2011 Share Posted August 9, 2011 So have the poor pay more taxes? That is your plan? By "broadening the base" are you referring to having those on the lower end of the fiscal ladder pay taxes that currently do not because they dont make enough money? And then concurrently lower taxes for those HIGHER on the income ladder at the same time? Could you provide some backup as to how this would work to get our country of its fiscal difficulties it currently faces? I haven't been following along with your and WVs pissing match, but your post above made me LOL. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avernus Posted August 9, 2011 Share Posted August 9, 2011 (edited) I'd like to retract one statement I made earlier... if gold keeps moving like it has...it is definitely in a bubble....it has moved up $75 since 6PM last night and has done well in the week prior, but this is getting ridiculous... the Hong Kong Metals Exchange must be pretty active to warrant this type of movement when the US markets are down... edit: make that $80 since 6PM last night...ET anyways.. Edited August 9, 2011 by Avernus Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westvirginia Posted August 9, 2011 Share Posted August 9, 2011 I haven't been following along with your and WVs pissing match, but your post above made me LOL. He took a double-shot of his extra-Showtime Rotisseriey pill this morning. His mom got him the new gummies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Codwagon Posted August 9, 2011 Share Posted August 9, 2011 ooops Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brentastic Posted August 9, 2011 Share Posted August 9, 2011 Again, this is not definitively a predictor, but more often than not when the futures are leaning heavily in one direction, it foretells the coming day's trading session. There could be more blood shed tomorrow. http://www.bloomberg.com/markets/stocks/futures/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
i_am_the_swammi Posted August 9, 2011 Share Posted August 9, 2011 ooops fail...he came in January 2009, market at 8077 thank George and his brilliant tax credits for 90% of this mess. Good news is, I was able to get a new iPod Touch with my tax credits Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bpwallace49 Posted August 9, 2011 Share Posted August 9, 2011 If you reduced deductions/loopholes, that increases the BASE or pool of money subject to tax. Lower the rates for everyone. I'm not saying you can NEVER raise taxes, but your boy obamessiah has increased spending by some phenomenal amount in two years, and NOW there is no room for cuts? Bullsiht. And you can't just raise taxes with impunity bp. This doesn't happen in a vacuum. People change behavior when taxes are raised. Witness the mass exodus of the rich from places like NY, NJ, and CA. There was room for cuts before. across the board. Pretty sure I never said otherwise. Cuts need to be paired with increasing revenues if we are to truly address the long term deficit. If you dont see that, then you have spending too much time in your bunker this summer. Are taxes "rasied" when a temporary tax credit expires? Or did the benefit that you were granted for a short period of time finally run out? If the concept truly is the deficit, and truly is about getting the US out of debt, then huge cuts need to be made with raising revenues. What do you think is more likely, a complete and total changing of the tax code, or letting the temporary Bush tax cuts expire? considering that both parties are spineless, the path of least resistance seems more likely. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bushwacked Posted August 9, 2011 Share Posted August 9, 2011 (edited) The thought that we can have viable deficit reform, at this point, with spending cuts only, is not unlike thinking you should just starve yourself to get healthier relative to eating good and getting more exercise. Edited August 9, 2011 by bushwacked Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atlanta Cracker Posted August 9, 2011 Share Posted August 9, 2011 meh....thats a strategy lauded by fund managers and others with an interest in you doing one thing...buying. As Brent mentions, that's predominantly a strategy for a bull market. Dollar cost averaging works well when the market is heading up, with a few valleys here and there...not when the market is heading south, with a few peaks here and there. If you have 20+ years until retirement and you are adding to a 401k then dollar cost averaging will work even if Brent's doomsday predictions for the market come true. Yes, everything currently in there will be down for a bit but you will be buying cheap and continue doing so and sometime in the next 20 years the market will be higher. If you are at or near retirement you shouldn't have any concerns about market declines because you shouldn't be very heavily weighted in stocks at all. If you are then reevaluate fast though this type of market is the worst to do that in. As for the market action as a whole, this is a bit overdone at this time in my opinion because there is no fundamental reason for the selloff going on right now. I think worst case there is another 10 - 15% downside from here and that would be pricing in a US recession. Having just lived through 2008 people are much more skittish and leverage is still a big issue causing large swings. Eventually, fundamental valuations will come into play and there will be values to be had but I wouldn't be a hero trying to nail the bottom. Times like this should reaffirm your investment strategy rather than call the whole thing into question. Making moves now driven by fear or greed isn't wise. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ursa Majoris Posted August 9, 2011 Share Posted August 9, 2011 Take a deep breath and re-read my post. If they did an overhaul which lowered rates for the rich but grabbed more from the poor broadened the base that could work. Fixed for clarity Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ursa Majoris Posted August 9, 2011 Share Posted August 9, 2011 Does anyone else here think this has less to do with the government (both parties / branches) than with bungling incompetence on Wall Street? Again? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avernus Posted August 9, 2011 Share Posted August 9, 2011 Does anyone else here think this has less to do with the government (both parties / branches) than with bungling incompetence on Wall Street? Again? I would like to say both and wall street is a hugh part of the problem but the bail outs have helped wall street....they kinda go hand in hand in these situations... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brentastic Posted August 9, 2011 Share Posted August 9, 2011 If you have 20+ years until retirement and you are adding to a 401k then dollar cost averaging will work even if Brent's doomsday predictions for the market come true. Yes, everything currently in there will be down for a bit but you will be buying cheap and continue doing so and sometime in the next 20 years the market will be higher.If you are at or near retirement you shouldn't have any concerns about market declines because you shouldn't be very heavily weighted in stocks at all. If you are then reevaluate fast though this type of market is the worst to do that in. As for the market action as a whole, this is a bit overdone at this time in my opinion because there is no fundamental reason for the selloff going on right now. I think worst case there is another 10 - 15% downside from here and that would be pricing in a US recession. Having just lived through 2008 people are much more skittish and leverage is still a big issue causing large swings. Eventually, fundamental valuations will come into play and there will be values to be had but I wouldn't be a hero trying to nail the bottom. Times like this should reaffirm your investment strategy rather than call the whole thing into question. Making moves now driven by fear or greed isn't wise. Over the last 70 years this strategy worked well. Had someone used this advice in the late 20s I'd be shocked if they came anywhere close to breaking even after 20 years. However, had someone cashed out in the late 20s and held cash, then used their cash to buy stocks a decade later, that person would be net even after 10 years and would also hold the purchasing power to buy stocks at their lowest prices. My only point is that just because a given strategy worked during the greatest bull market in US history doesn't mean it will continue to work during any time frame in the future. I agree with your last paragraph but only if you agree with Benjamin Graham's definition of the term investment: "An investment operation is one which, upon thorough analysis, promises safety of principal and an adequate return. Operations not meeting these requirements are speculative Chart for perspective: http://stockcharts.com/freecharts/historical/djia1900.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brentastic Posted August 9, 2011 Share Posted August 9, 2011 Does anyone else here think this has less to do with the government (both parties / branches) than with bungling incompetence on Wall Street? Again? Politics has nothing to do with this, at least not in a direct way. The politician's side show is just to keep us minions confused and focused on something else. Then when SHAM WOW! gets the most fracked up is when they pass laws under our noses. I'm starting to think that last year's 'flash crash' was a test run for these HFT programs - basically a test run to see how fast and hard they could push the market before causing a complete bottoming-out. The bottom out last summer allowed these programmers to get a feel for the parameters of the system. That's why we're seeing, imo, such a controlled drop right now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atlanta Cracker Posted August 9, 2011 Share Posted August 9, 2011 Over the last 70 years this strategy worked well. Had someone used this advice in the late 20s I'd be shocked if they came anywhere close to breaking even after 20 years. I will take your challenge at this late hour. Let's say you had accumulated $100,000 in retirement investment savings by the end of 1928 (obviously no 401ks then but we can pretend). Assume you are making 50,000 a year and saving 10% or $5,000. I will ignore matching for the sake of simplicity. We will even assume no raises. So start 100k with adding 5k/ year (assume at the very end of each year) and run it through the market and see what you end up with in 20 years. Using these historic returns (for lack of a better source at this hour) here is what you get. After 10 years, you had 150,000 total investment and your portfolio is worth $155,452. After 20 years, you had 200,000 total investment and your portfolio is worth $372,803 Raw Data (can't figure formatting right now) Year Return add total in value1928 43.81% 0 100000 100000 1929 -8.30% 5000 105000 96700 1930 -25.12% 5000 110000 77408 1931 -43.84% 5000 115000 48472 1932 -8.64% 5000 120000 49284 1933 49.98% 5000 125000 78917 1934 -1.19% 5000 130000 82978 1935 46.74% 5000 135000 126762 1936 31.94% 5000 140000 172250 1937 -35.34% 5000 145000 116376 1938 29.28% 5000 150000 155452 1939 -1.10% 5000 155000 158742 1940 -10.67% 5000 160000 146804 1941 -12.77% 5000 165000 133057 1942 19.17% 5000 170000 163564 1943 25.06% 5000 175000 209553 1944 19.03% 5000 180000 254431 1945 35.82% 5000 185000 350569 1946 -8.43% 5000 190000 326016 1947 5.20% 5000 195000 347969 1948 5.70% 5000 200000 372803 If you knew exactly when the market bottom was you could have done better sitting in cash but ultimately in 20 years it didn't matter AND and this is a big and - you didn't have to worry about being wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westvirginia Posted August 9, 2011 Share Posted August 9, 2011 Look, you wealth-enviers just don't get it. If you took every dime of everyone's income over $250K that gives you $2.4 trillion (which is what, 40%-50% of one years budget for fedgov?). And that assumes NO changes in behavior. How long do you think people will keep making this money just to hand it over? There is NO WAY to tax ourselves into prosperity. We HAVE to grow the economy to get out of this. We will probably need tax increases, but if you do it now, you'll only stifle growth and set us back. We also HAVE to cut spending. I find it interesting you guys just love the obamessiah saying we can't cut anymore when he hasn't even come CLOSE to cutting back to spending levels we were at when he came into office. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clubfoothead Posted August 9, 2011 Share Posted August 9, 2011 I don't pledge allegiance to the stock market. Let it all burn. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Piles Posted August 9, 2011 Share Posted August 9, 2011 1st bolded - Ok, you're fracking around, right? It's like telling a nun about your wildest drug-induced orgy. In case you are not joking, I would urge you not to do that. Once the market really starts accelerating its decline, the biggest the stock the harder they'll fall. If you can be patient, sit on cash and wait about 10 years (once a bottom and subsequent bull market is confirmed), then you will be able to buy stocks at premium discounts - assuming there is still a stock market around to invest in. 2nd bolded - yes Only partially. I would not take out a home equity loan but I most likely will be buying some more AAPL if it hits $300. I guess it will depend how the market is reacting if and when $300 occurs. I'd like to see things settled down before I buy anything. I don't want to catch a falling knife. Definitely will be interesting to see how things shake out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimC Posted August 9, 2011 Share Posted August 9, 2011 Lousy time to lose a job and put the house up for sale. Both of which are happening to me. I did move my 401(k) over to a safe place last month and haven't lost a penny. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big John Posted August 9, 2011 Share Posted August 9, 2011 (edited) Lousy time to lose a job and put the house up for sale. Both of which are happening to me. yep, here too Edited August 9, 2011 by Big John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
detlef Posted August 9, 2011 Share Posted August 9, 2011 Lousy time to lose a job and put the house up for sale. Both of which are happening to me. I did move my 401(k) over to a safe place last month and haven't lost a penny. Oh man, that is so sad to hear. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Irish Doggy Posted August 9, 2011 Share Posted August 9, 2011 Lousy time to lose a job and put the house up for sale. Both of which are happening to me. Very sorry to hear this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrTed46 Posted August 9, 2011 Share Posted August 9, 2011 Lousy time to lose a job and put the house up for sale. Both of which are happening to me. I did move my 401(k) over to a safe place last month and haven't lost a penny. sorry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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