Tom Brady Retiring, for real this time.

[League_Champion]

42 minutes ago, Running With Daboll said:

  I just think that had he been in another environment, we probably wouldn't be having this debate right now.

In all fairness a 40 something Brady did take a good, not great Tampa team to a Superbowl and win it. That was undeniably on Brady's shoulders. That's what sealed it for me. After that win, there was no question in my mind that he was the greatest ever. 

[FinishTheDrill]

On 2/1/2023 at 12:25 PM, Running With Daboll said:

And has ultimately traded in an older "model" woman for a newer version, regardless of who initiated it?

lol

On 2/1/2023 at 12:25 PM, Running With Daboll said:

Don't even get me started on this. 

But, you did just that, no?

 

[rajncajn]

1 hour ago, Running With Daboll said:

EXACTLY.

I don't deny that Brady made the most of his situation, and he clearly exceeded all expectations of him. But just imagine how many other QB's that could have benefited from being in the same situation as he. 

Yes, Brady had what it took to maximize what was afforded him, and he deserves credit for that. But I'm tired of these facts getting ignored or minimized.

Drew Bledsoe was playing every bit as good a Brady before his injury.  Had it not been for Bledsoe, there likely wouldn't have ever been a Brady.

[FinishTheDrill]

1 hour ago, League_Champion said:

...That'll teach ya for being different". 

You misspelled "truculent narcissist".  

[FinishTheDrill]

17 minutes ago, rajncajn said:

Drew Bledsoe was playing every bit as good a Brady before his injury.  Had it not been for Bledsoe, there likely wouldn't have ever been a Brady.

 

Interesting.  One can ponder, where might Backup-Brady have ended up?  

[rajncajn]

10 minutes ago, FinishTheDrill said:

Interesting.  One can ponder, where might Backup-Brady have ended up?  

Bledsoe had just signed a big long term contract. It's most likely he either ends up as a backup on another team or out of the league altogether. Makes you wonder how many players completely miss their opportunity for similar reasons.

[FinishTheDrill]

4 minutes ago, rajncajn said:

Bledsoe had just signed a big long term contract. It's most likely he either ends up as a backup on another team or out of the league altogether. Makes you wonder how many players completely miss their opportunity for similar reasons.

Yep.  Interesting topic, the convergence of factors that can -and often are needed to- result in success.  I have a true story of missed opportunity, an acquaintance from my youth, and I am sure its a story that's happened a million more times since.  

 

[League_Champion]

26 minutes ago, FinishTheDrill said:

 

Interesting.  One can ponder, where might Backup-Brady have ended up?  

I think it was apparent early on that Brady was no backup. Talent wise they were pretty close but Brady has the football intangibles that even BB can't teach. He's a machine. 

[FinishTheDrill]

9 minutes ago, League_Champion said:

I think it was apparent early on that Brady was no backup. Talent wise they were pretty close but Brady has the football intangibles that even BB can't teach. He's a machine. 

 

I think Brady as GOAT is close to but maybe not entirely inarguable, though the Marino/Manning/Montanna/SomedayMahomes discussions here arent without merit.   

Part of every career is opportunity, and seizing it when presented.  Brady did that in spades.   

Back to the quote... Health& injury notwithstanding, how long would it have otherwise taken Brady to have supplanted bledsoe as starter?    I think it may be measured in years.  

 

[rajncajn]

10 minutes ago, League_Champion said:

I think it was apparent early on that Brady was no backup. Talent wise they were pretty close but Brady has the football intangibles that even BB can't teach. He's a machine. 

The point Bier and the rest of us are making is that there are a LOT of players who have the traits they need to succeed and it's not just all about getting just any opportunity. Brady had the benefit of coming into a team that was already completely set up for him to succeed. He wasn't the player then that he developed into and so, had he had a similar opportunity with another team and another coach,  it's very likely he never becomes the player that he did. 

[League_Champion]

Just now, FinishTheDrill said:

 

I think Brady as GOAT is close to but maybe not entirely inarguable, though the Marino/Manning/Montanna/SomedayMahomes discussions here arent without merit.   

Part of every career is opportunity, and seizing it when presented.  Brady did that in spades.   

Back to the quote... Health& injury notwithstanding, how long would it have otherwise taken Brady to have supplanted bledsoe as starter?    I think it may be measured in years.  

 

I would love to see Marino in today's NFL. 

I wouldn't be shocked if we're calling Mahomes the GOAT when it's all over. He's on an entire different level. 

[FinishTheDrill]

2 minutes ago, League_Champion said:

I would love to see Marino in today's NFL. 

I wouldn't be shocked if we're calling Mahomes the GOAT when it's all over. He's on an entire different level. 

Yep.  You and a lot of people.  But I'll hold off a while longer on that crown.  He's still a kid, his career is young, and he's one injury away from "I wonder would could have..."   

 

[League_Champion]

2 minutes ago, rajncajn said:

He wasn't the player then that he developed into and so, had he had a similar opportunity with another team and another coach,  it's very likely he never becomes the player that he did. 

I totally get the argument but you're thinking in terms of talent. Of course there were others who were as or even more talented. Tom Brady didn't win Superbowls on talent alone, he's different. He had the it factor. We're talking 7 Superbowls, that's insane.

That's just my opinion, you can have your own GOAT. 

 

[League_Champion]

2 minutes ago, FinishTheDrill said:

Yep.  You and a lot of people.  But I'll hold off a while longer on that crown.  He's still a kid, his career is young, and he's one injury away from "I wonder would could have..."   

 

Absolutely, anything can happen. 

[rajncajn]

2 minutes ago, FinishTheDrill said:

 

I think Brady as GOAT is close to but maybe not entirely inarguable, though the Marino/Manning/Montanna/SomedayMahomes discussions here arent without merit.   

Part of every career is opportunity, and seizing it when presented.  Brady did that in spades.   

Back to the quote... Health& injury notwithstanding, how long would it have otherwise taken Brady to have supplanted bledsoe as starter?    I think it may be measured in years.  

 

Bledsoe signed a 10 yr contract and played several years in the league after. I think it's very likely that the Patriots still win the superbowl that year and Bledsoe had already had a few pro bowls, 4 playoff appearances and a superbowl appearance under his belt. There's no way Brady ever supplants him otherwise. 

[Bier Meister]

10 minutes ago, rajncajn said:

The point Bier and the rest of us are making is that there are a LOT of players who have the traits they need to succeed and it's not just all about getting just any opportunity. Brady had the benefit of coming into a team that was already completely set up for him to succeed. He wasn't the player then that he developed into and so, had he had a similar opportunity with another team and another coach,  it's very likely he never becomes the player that he did. 

Pretty much.  NEP were winning playoff games with brady throwing under 150 (sometimes 100)/gm. 

[League_Champion]

1 minute ago, Bier Meister said:

Pretty much.  NEP were winning playoff games with brady throwing under 150 (sometimes 100)/gm. 

See, you're looking at stats again. Look at the intangibles. He just knew how to win, most QBs lose those kind of games. It's not like he had the most talented players around him. 

[Bier Meister]

1 hour ago, League_Champion said:

In all fairness a 40 something Brady did take a good, not great Tampa team to a Superbowl and win it. That was undeniably on Brady's shoulders. That's what sealed it for me. After that win, there was no question in my mind that he was the greatest ever. 

Wait a minute.  you mean the team with a decent to good defense and jameis "int" winston who threw for 5000 yds, 33 td and 30 ints the year prior? The same team who brought in AB, Fournette, Gronk for brady to go with Evans, Godwin, OJ, brate and ronnie brown?

 

Brady at 40 was a much different Qb than those early years.  Are you also forgetting how depleted NEP was the last year or two beofre brady left NEP? The team was in massive rebuild and BB still got them back into the playoffs (and I really can't stand BB).

 

 

[Bier Meister]

8 minutes ago, League_Champion said:

See, you're looking at stats again. Look at the intangibles. He just knew how to win, most QBs lose those kind of games. It's not like he had the most talented players around him. 

I look at many factors.  You are denying key elements to a (and that) team's success.  

 

With bledsoe the year prior they had 2 1000 yd wrs.  he had a smith (1200 yds) and corey dillon (1500 yds).

 

Are you also forgetting the parcells and bledsoe went to the SB in 97? Do you remember who the MVP was for GBP?

The defenses and specials teams scored for them and kept PA low.

[FinishTheDrill]

32 minutes ago, rajncajn said:

Bledsoe signed a 10 yr contract and played several years in the league after. I think it's very likely that the Patriots still win the superbowl that year and Bledsoe had already had a few pro bowls, 4 playoff appearances and a superbowl appearance under his belt. There's no way Brady ever supplants him otherwise. 

 

An interesting "what if", then!  Stays on the bench as #2... eventual trade recognized TB talent to a QB starved squad?

 

What coulda...

[purplemonster]

I went back and watched the highlights of his 1st two super bowls. Unquestionably the D basically won that game for the Pats. Pats were ahead for most of the game so they ran a conservative game plan and Brady didn't throw for much. Hard to fault the guy too much for a game plan like that. Then when the Rams tied it up late the Pats had the ball at their 17 yard line, no timeouts, 1:10 sec. and Madden is saying he vehemently disagrees with trying to score, just play for overtime. They don't, Brady leads them down to score and they win.

The second one was against Carolina and he threw for plenty, 350 some yards, 3 TD's, 1 INT, and a game winning drive again.  Theres nothing there that hurts his GOAT designation.

After being replaced, Bledsoe could have played again in 2001, but BB wanted to keep Brady as starter even if it pissed off Bledsoe. Which it did. He was traded in the off-season, a former #1 overall draft pick being traded to keep a 2nd year guy drafted 199th.

Like we said before I think it's fine to think that he benefited from a somewhat strong defense and an easier division but I think he would have been very successful no matter where he'd played. He certainly was clutch when the time called for it, where games are won and lost. 

Was he a great athlete? Depends what you call 'athlete' but did you see him run especially early? He looked like Bambi. So as a raw athlete definitely not, for how you play QB to win games, I think so. 

Edited February 4, 2023 by purplemonster

[Bier Meister]

purple-

 

for the 03-04 playoffs, NEP d limited ten and indy to 14 points each.

vs ten: 200 yds

vs indy: 237.  that defense sacked manning 4 times and produced 4 ints, and a safety. Vinatieri nailed 5 fgs

[rajncajn]

2 hours ago, purplemonster said:

He certainly was clutch when the time called for it, where games are won and lost. 

His offensive line sure was "clutch" on a lot of those game winning drives. 

[rajncajn]

And FWIW, I don't really have a solid GOAT. Manning, Brady and Montana are my top 3, but order may vary. Brees, Moon and Marino round out my top 5 (yes, I know that's 6). I don't include the older players because it was just a completely different game and different era then and more difficult to compare them to players from the 80s on, when passing began to take a more prominent role in the game.

[purplemonster]

1 hour ago, rajncajn said:

His offensive line sure was "clutch" on a lot of those game winning drives. 

FWIW Bill Barnwell put together this. It is mostly stats driven but he is a Northeastern Grad which is in Boston

https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/25787154/fact-checking-patriots-18-year-nfl-dynasty-real-myth