Tom Brady Retiring, for real this time.

[gilthorp]

70% are going to say Brady is the Goat. There's a lot of evidence to suggest he is. 

It will be hard to get people off that position if they have it. I think the Goat for the position itself is still playing. 

[rajncajn]

1 hour ago, gilthorp said:

70% are going to say Brady is the Goat. There's a lot of evidence to suggest he is. 

It will be hard to get people off that position if they have it. I think the Goat for the position itself is still playing. 

He's got a long way to go and has to sustain it throughout his career, but I honestly think Mahommes is on a level like I've never seen before. Not sure if that's who you're referring to and you could certainly make an argument for a few other guys,  but that's who it is for me. 

[rajncajn]

2 hours ago, rajncajn said:

That would be Marino and probably Moon

I hate quoting myself, but thinking on this a bit more... pocket presence is really a difficult thing to judge a "best ever" because there are a lot of different things that factor in. Brady, Brees and Manning were all masters at reading a defense pre-snap. Brees could write a novel on how to manipulate a secondary and his accuracy from the pocket is unmatched. All three were on another level at working in unison with their offensive lines.  However, none of them ever had much in the way of escapability, though they all could work well within the pocket.  I would say that any of those three you could say was the best, but I'm going to give the nod to Manning, who I think someone already mentioned, was one of the least sacked QBs of all time. I think only Marino was sacked less, but that's probably also because he got the ball out so quickly.

[Bier Meister]

49ers homer:  they got Marino for 4 sacks and 2 picks in the super bowl (I was there)

[Running With Daboll]

10 hours ago, darin3 said:

C'mon, you don't find that in the least bit funny / hypocritical?

Why does everything have to turn into a pissing match around here?  You said you were keeping it short and went on to type 7 paragraphs, man.  

I thought it was funny.  Maybe you should pop some additional Metamucil.   

Hypocritical? LOL. Now "that" is funny.

First, I didn't say I'd keep it "short", I said I would "condense" my response, which I did, especially when you consider how much there is to cover when it concerns Tom Brady. Believe me, there is a chit ton more that I'd like to say about this GOAT nonsense, but I digress.

But we both know this isn't about being you being "funny", it's all about your obvious passive/aggressive tendencies. The passive/aggressive playbook always has the "I was just kidding, can't you take a joke", aspect to it. Yeah, my sense of humor is intact, but I recognize bullchit when I see it, and I'm always going to call it out.

Funny, somehow you didn't find any humor in my response, because after all...I was just kidding.  I'd say try the Metamucil on yourself, but I really think a high enema might serve you better. 😊 (note the obligatory smiley face)

 

 

[Running With Daboll]

This whole GOAT argument is entirely subjective, especially where the NFL is concerned.

In every other major sport, players are responsible for both offense and defense, with the exception of pitchers.  Those players contribute to both aspects of the game, therefore it is far easier to assess what their overall contributions to their game was.

Jordan was not only an offensive wizard, his defensive contributions rounded out his overall game, and played a huge part in his legend. The same can be said of Gretzky, and whatever baseball player you are partial to. In fact, it's an aspect to their games that cannot be overlooked or ignored.  You would never consider a guy for GOAT status in those sports, if his overall game suffered due to defensive insufficiency's.

In that regard, NFL GOATS aren't scrutinized nearly as much, because there is no contribution to the other aspect of the game, be it offense or defense.  IMO, no other position in football is helped or hindered more by the other side of the field than QB.

Dan Marino is the perfect example of a guy who suffered because he played for a team that placed little emphasis on defense. This guy, had he been in a different situation, might have won multiple Super Bowls.  It certainly wasn't his fault that he came up empty.  He wasn't perfect, but he was a great QB, and he has no rings to show for it.

Tom Brady was certainly no better than Dan Marino in terms of talent, and IMO, not even as talented as him. But Tom Brady landed in a place that set him up for long term success.  Put Brady on another team, with another coach, and another system. Does THAT Tom Brady get celebrated today like this Tom Brady is?

There are just TOO MANY factors involved in naming a guy the GOAT, and luck is a big one.  Was Brady a great QB? Yeah, I'll concede to that, he made the most out of what he was provided with, and he certainly rose to the occasion multiple times. But I would like to have seen what Marino, Rodgers, or even Peyton Manning would have accomplished in that same system, with that same head coach, with those same solid defenses, and the same lame competition (AFC EAST) that Brady benefited from for so long.

Edited February 3, 2023 by Running With Daboll

[League_Champion]

10 hours ago, rajncajn said:

That would be Marino and probably Moon

Good call. Marino had that nice 1/4 delivery where he could just fling it 40 yards with little effort. 

[stevegrab]

13 hours ago, League_Champion said:

Who had the fastest release time and highest pocket awareness? It's probably really close. That's who took less hits. 

Sure that plays a part, but the quality of OL play plays a major role as well. Some QBs like Roethlisberger would hold onto the ball until the last minute trying to make plays and probably took more hits/sacks because of that. 

Brady was sacked 565 times in 23 years, or 24 times a season, about 1.5 sacks per game. His 3 year run in TB had a bit lower number, under 22 sacks per year. There is also a sack% stat on PFR, 4.5% for his career, but a lower 3.1 in TB. 

Peyton 303 sacks in 17 years, under 18 sacks per year. His sack% is a pretty consistent 3.1.

Stats on hits would be harder to come by, but this bit of info doesn't really support what I was thinking, which was that Peyton took a bigger beating during his career making a long career more difficult. 

 

[League_Champion]

3 minutes ago, stevegrab said:

Peyton 303 sacks in 17 years, under 18 sacks per year. His sack% is a pretty consistent 3.1.

Yeah, both were absolute snipers and masters of getting the ball out. Good stuff. 

Randall Cunningham had the longest release that I've ever seen. He would wind up like a pitcher. It's a miracle that he didn't get killed. 

[stevegrab]

2 hours ago, Running With Daboll said:

This whole GOAT argument is entirely subjective, especially where the NFL is concerned.

In every other major sport, players are responsible for both offense and defense, with the exception of pitchers.  Those players contribute to both aspects of the game, therefore it is far easier to assess what their overall contributions to their game was.

Jordan was not only an offensive wizard, his defensive contributions rounded out his overall game, and played a huge part in his legend. The same can be said of Gretzky, and whatever baseball player you are partial to. In fact, it's an aspect to their games that cannot be overlooked or ignored.  You would never consider a guy for GOAT status in those sports, if his overall game suffered due to defensive insufficiency's.

In that regard, NFL GOATS aren't scrutinized nearly as much, because there is no contribution to the other aspect of the game, be it offense or defense.  IMO, no other position in football is helped or hindered more by the other side of the field than QB.

Dan Marino is the perfect example of a guy who suffered because he played for a team that placed little emphasis on defense. This guy, had he been in a different situation, might have won multiple Super Bowls.  It certainly wasn't his fault that he came up empty.  He wasn't perfect, but he was a great QB, and he has no rings to show for it.

Tom Brady was certainly no better than Dan Marino in terms of talent, and IMO, not even as talented as him. But Tom Brady landed in a place that set him up for long term success.  Put Brady on another team, with another coach, and another system. Does THAT Tom Brady get celebrated today like this Tom Brady is?

There are just TOO MANY factors involved in naming a guy the GOAT, and luck is a big one.  Was Brady a great QB? Yeah, I'll concede to that, he made the most out of what he was provided with, and he certainly rose to the occasion multiple times. But I would like to have seen what Marino, Rodgers, or even Peyton Manning would have accomplished in that same system, with that same head coach, with those same solid defenses, and the same lame competition (AFC EAST) that Brady benefited from for so long.

Back when the Steelers drafted Roethlisberger many Browns were lamenting missing on that quality QB. But many also fail to recognize the Browns at that time were nowhere near the Steelers, didn't have the OL, the defense or RB they did. Also didn't have quality coaching and an organization setup to win and play the long game. Ben would have been shredded here (like Tim Couch and others were) and we never would have seen the success the Steelers had with him.

Belichick is a great coach, a defensive mastermind and built a great team in NE, Brady was on piece of that, just a clump of dirt when drafted, but became a great one. Without BB and the defense he never does that, may have never even become a long term starter without the proper coaching and environment.

This is why I hate that QBs are given a W-L record and no other player. Yes I know baseball does it, but as far as I know that's been there since the beginning, or at least the very early days. 

[darin3]

9 hours ago, Running With Daboll said:

Derp.

Condense = shorten

OK man.  I do not argue here, it's pointless.  I thought it was funny.  End of story, carry on.

[Def.]

1 hour ago, darin3 said:

Condense = shorten

OK man.  I do not argue here, it's pointless.  I thought it was funny.  End of story, carry on.

Signature is not checking out there Darin. 

[League_Champion]

9 hours ago, stevegrab said:

Without BB and the defense he never does that, may have never even become a long term starter

Ok, pump the breaks. We're talking Tom Brady, not Trent Dilfer. BB recognized that Brady was special very early on. 

He forced BB to start him, he wasn't handed anything. 

[Bier Meister]

40 minutes ago, League_Champion said:

Ok, pump the breaks. We're talking Tom Brady, not Trent Dilfer. BB recognized that Brady was special very early on. 

He forced BB to start him, he wasn't handed anything. 

when he took over for bledsoe, he played about 14 games...threw for over 300 once and over 250 twice.

first full game: faulk and smith rushed for 150, 3 td... defense scored twice

[League_Champion]

6 minutes ago, Bier Meister said:

first full game: faulk and smith rushed for 150, 3 td... defense scored twice

Seriously??? You gushed over Purdy like he was the next coming of Jesus but Tom Brady was, ehhhh ok. 

[Bier Meister]

Just now, League_Champion said:

Seriously??? You gushed over Purdy like he was the next coming of Jesus but Tom Brady was, ehhhh ok. 

But I didn’t.  Please find it.  He performed better than I expected and IMO earned the starting spot next year if healthy.

I also never started talking about purdy potentially being the goat.  You might be confusing posters.

I also mentioned that he benefits from excellent defense and running game. 
 

if you cannot have an honest discussion, let’s just end it.

[gilthorp]

Laborious_Commentary

[Running With Daboll]

15 hours ago, darin3 said:

Condense = shorten

OK man.  I do not argue here, it's pointless.  I thought it was funny.  End of story, carry on.

Actually no, condense does not = shorten. When you condense something you are focusing on the most salient issues, as opposed to just shortening something for the sake of preserving space and time.  Again, in Brady's case it's difficult to CONDENSE an analysis of his career into just a few paragraphs, so what I wrote was actually relatively sparse.

But here's the thing "man"...you didn't make a single comment about "what" I said, you just commented and "joked" about the length of it.  The entire point of your response was to make an attempt at humiliating me, whether you admit it or not.

You failed miserably of course, but what is left is the fact that you contributed absolutely nothing to the conversation except your passive/aggressive behavior, of which there are multiple examples throughout this forum.

I thought forums were about the exchange of ideas and opinions. You don't have to agree or disagree with my opinions, you can just let them lay there unanswered if you choose. But when you make a comment just to exercise your passive/aggressive personality, then you expose the hypocrite that resides within you.

I could go on calling you out, but you'll just deny any of it is real, make another "joke", and trivialize anything I say.

In the end, the only thing that was "pointless", was your initial response to my post.  It added NOTHING in terms of the discussion at hand, and it won't stop me from making similar posts in the future.  In other words, your attempt FAILED.

"Carry on" is exactly what I'll be doing, much to your chagrin.

 

Edited February 4, 2023 by Running With Daboll

[League_Champion]

5 minutes ago, Running With Daboll said:

You failed miserably of course, but what is left is the fact that you contributed absolutely nothing to the conversation except your passive/aggressive behavior, of which there are multiple examples throughout this forum.

You pretty much nailed 90% of the people in here.

How dare you form a different opinion or go against their grain. "Now I shall put you on ignore". That'll teach ya for being different". 

[Running With Daboll]

22 hours ago, stevegrab said:

Back when the Steelers drafted Roethlisberger many Browns were lamenting missing on that quality QB. But many also fail to recognize the Browns at that time were nowhere near the Steelers, didn't have the OL, the defense or RB they did. Also didn't have quality coaching and an organization setup to win and play the long game. Ben would have been shredded here (like Tim Couch and others were) and we never would have seen the success the Steelers had with him.

Belichick is a great coach, a defensive mastermind and built a great team in NE, Brady was on piece of that, just a clump of dirt when drafted, but became a great one. Without BB and the defense he never does that, may have never even become a long term starter without the proper coaching and environment.

This is why I hate that QBs are given a W-L record and no other player. Yes I know baseball does it, but as far as I know that's been there since the beginning, or at least the very early days. 

EXACTLY.

I don't deny that Brady made the most of his situation, and he clearly exceeded all expectations of him. But just imagine how many other QB's that could have benefited from being in the same situation as he. 

Yes, Brady had what it took to maximize what was afforded him, and he deserves credit for that. But I'm tired of these facts getting ignored or minimized.

[Running With Daboll]

23 hours ago, League_Champion said:

Randall Cunningham had the longest release that I've ever seen. He would wind up like a pitcher. It's a miracle that he didn't get killed. 

That dude was a BEAST, before "beast" was used as a descriptive. Ask Carl Banks how hard it was to bring him down, he absolutely was a huge PITA when it came to defending him.

If you recall, he also handled the punting duties for the Eagles.  I was at the Meadowlands when he punted from the back of his own EZ, (where I was sitting). The ball sailed over the returners head, bounced at about the 35 yard line, and proceeded to roll inside the Giants 5 yard line.  No one had ever seen a punt like that before. It was a 91 yard punt.

Edited February 4, 2023 by Running With Daboll

[League_Champion]

2 minutes ago, Running With Daboll said:

Yes, Brady had what it took to maximize what was afforded him, and he deserves credit for that. But I'm tired of these facts getting ignored or minimized.

You're right, the facts can't be ignored. You can also ask what has BB done in his career without Brady. Do the Patriots even win 1 Superbowl in that timeframe? Probably not. 

I'm just going by the good old eyeball test. I don't know if there was anyone better at reading and dissecting defenses in his heyday. Give Tom Brady the ball with 1 minute left down by 2 and it was game over, he was going to score somehow. He was a killer, you can't find that on a stat sheet. 

[Running With Daboll]

2 minutes ago, League_Champion said:

You're right, the facts can't be ignored. You can also ask what has BB done in his career without Brady. Do the Patriots even win 1 Superbowl in that timeframe? Probably not. 

I'm just going by the good old eyeball test. I don't know if there was anyone better at reading and dissecting defenses in his heyday. Give Tom Brady the ball with 1 minute left down by 2 and it was game over, he was going to score somehow. He was a killer, you can't find that on a stat sheet. 

I agree, that's why I have always maintained that they were each 50% responsible for the others success.

I know there are plenty of examples in Brady lore that illustrate his comeback abilities. But there have been many occasions where he has also failed, they just aren't discussed as often.

We obviously disagree about where Brady stands overall, in terms of measured "greatness", but that doesn't mean that I deny what he was, and what he brought to the game.  I just think that had he been in another environment, we probably wouldn't be having this debate right now.

[Running With Daboll]

9 minutes ago, League_Champion said:

You can also ask what has BB done in his career without Brady

This is what makes Billy one of the great head coaches, arguably the greatest.  It was HIS decision to ride with Brady instead of Bledsoe, so Bill knew what he had on his hands, and he extracted as much as he possibly could from him.

It's possibly the greatest player/coach combination of all time.

[Running With Daboll]

15 hours ago, Def. said:

Signature is not checking out there Darin. 

Well, I'm not a "troll", so technically I suppose it still applies. You'd have to ask him for confirmation of that.  You and he might want to re-consider who the actual troll really is.

Edited February 4, 2023 by Running With Daboll