TDFFFreak Posted July 21, 2006 Share Posted July 21, 2006 (edited) F-it, I knew I shouldn't have come into this thread. As far as I see the kid has done a lot for the city of New Orleans and the Saints "without even stepping on the field." If you want to read into that as just business posturing then you will believe what you want to believe. My opinion is that it doesn't matter what he does on or off the field there will always be detractors. If his worst sins are an ego and asking for his college number then I'll certainly take that. Gimme a freaking break...better yet, give Reggie one. I really don't see Bush doing anything that different then most other high draft pick players. I lean towards the "give the guy a break" side as well. will give you a break... a broken leg! Edited July 21, 2006 by TDFFFreak Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BOO Posted July 21, 2006 Share Posted July 21, 2006 LMAO rajn. I stayed away from this thread on purpose today. I don't really know how long you've been around rajn, but look at who you are debating with... The point is to get Sarge and BB against each other. It's sort of like watching midgets wrestle - stupid but you watch anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikesVikes Posted July 21, 2006 Share Posted July 21, 2006 Never believe anything 1 week before the draft or during contract negotitions. A lesson we're still learning it looks like. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nogohawk Posted July 21, 2006 Share Posted July 21, 2006 Finally some truth within this thread. Thank you! [Nicholson] "The truth! ... The truth! ... You can't handle the truth!" [/Nicholson] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rajncajn Posted July 21, 2006 Share Posted July 21, 2006 LMAO rajn. I stayed away from this thread on purpose today. I don't really know how long you've been around rajn, but look at who you are debating with... The point is to get Sarge and BB against each other. It's sort of like watching midgets wrestle - stupid but you watch anyway. I nearly made a crack about BB's knowledge of RBs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bronco Billy Posted July 21, 2006 Author Share Posted July 21, 2006 Ahhh, yes, I've been waiting for this post. Very predictable. It's always easy to spend someone else's money, isn't it ? (or in this case, to say you'd take less money when there is no chance in he!! you'll ever be in a position close to this one). Yeah, that's great in theory because just like it's not my money, it's not your career, either, is it? I would suggest you are just as removed from the situation as I am. And the fact still remains, whether you, rc, or Bush likes it or not - Bush was not the top pick in the draft. He was the second pick. Whether you, rc, or Bush think that he deserved to be the #1 pick and therefore deserves to be paid as much or more than Williams is being paid is irrelevant. He needs to sign an appropriate contract - that will still pay him tens of millions of dollars for playing a game - and get into camp. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Savage Beatings Posted July 21, 2006 Share Posted July 21, 2006 I don't see this as a big deal... at least not enough to call it a character issue of Bush's part. He has been described as a rare talent at RB. His agents want to milk that reputation for as much money as they can. This is not out of the norm, and should not have been unexpected. I'm sure they will find some eventual compromise... I can't see Bush holding out the season or anything like that. Once Bush finally hits the field all of this will be forgotten very quickly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Score 1 Posted July 21, 2006 Share Posted July 21, 2006 Let me see if I've got the gist of this three page and counting thread right. A top draft pick (2nd overall) might hold out to get the best contract possible? Is that right? Do I have the gist of it? Can someone...anyone...point out one single draft where some top draft picks agent, didn't make noise about a possible holdout over the $$$ in their clients contract? Excuse me if I don't see any news in this. The list of top drafted rookie players, whose agents have done this, is almost as long as this useless thread. Just a few that immediately came to mind. Emmitt Smith did this missing all of TC & pre season...what a jerk! LT2 did this with the Chargers...must be a jerk Phillip Rivers did it too...another jerk. etc...etc...etc... It's called NEGOTIATING people. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bronco Billy Posted July 21, 2006 Author Share Posted July 21, 2006 Let me see if I've got the gist of this three page and counting thread right. A top draft pick (2nd overall) might hold out to get the best contract possible? Is that right? Do I have the gist of it? Obviously, no, you don't have the gist of it. The second pick of the draft wants 20% more than the QB who was drafted #1 last year, and at least $2M more than the player who was drafted #1 this year. THAT'S the gist of it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Score 1 Posted July 21, 2006 Share Posted July 21, 2006 Obviously, no, you don't have the gist of it. The second pick of the draft wants 20% more than the QB who was drafted #1 last year, and at least $2M more than the player who was drafted #1 this year. THAT'S the gist of it. Oh! So the 2nd overall picks agent, is NEGOITATING for big $$$ for his client and starts with a ridiculously high number? Geez THAT'S NEVER HAPPENED BEFORE You've run this thread to three pages over that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bronco Billy Posted July 21, 2006 Author Share Posted July 21, 2006 Oh! So the 2nd overall picks agent, is NEGOITATING for big $$$ for his client and starts with a ridiculously high number? Geez THAT'S NEVER HAPPENED BEFORE You've run this thread to three pages over that? It's also the potential of how far apart the two sides apparently are. Yeah, minimalize it now. If it ends up holding up through training camp or even further, it won't quite be so trivial, will it? Besides, it's for all practical purposes still the offseason. What do you want to discuss? How Tampa Bay ought to adjust the angle of the lettering on their spamshirts? Whether Billick should have a part in his hair or wear bangs? Geez, if the topic & subsequent discussion upsets you that much, stay out of the thread. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Score 1 Posted July 21, 2006 Share Posted July 21, 2006 It's also the potential of how far apart the two sides apparently are. Yeah, minimalize it now. If it ends up holding up through training camp or even further, it won't quite be so trivial, will it? You mean like how Emmitt Smith heldout for all of TC & pre season? Yeah those contract negoitiations and his holdout had a HUGH impact on Emmitt's abilities as a player and the Cowboys success as a team, right? As I said, let me know when there's some REAL news. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bronco Billy Posted July 21, 2006 Author Share Posted July 21, 2006 You mean like how Emmitt Smith heldout for all of TC & pre season? Yeah those contract negoitiations and his holdout had a HUGH impact on Emmitt's abilities as a player and the Cowboys success as a team, right? As I said, let me know when there's some REAL news. So what exactly are you saying? That Bush is going to be at least as good as Emmitt? That training camp is meaningless for rookies? That Bush is going to impact the Saints the same way that Emmitt impacted the Cowboys & the Saints should become a dynasty in the near future? That no holdout ever hurt a rookie? Or are you just here to make comments that by your definition are just as meaningless as the others in this thread? If that's the case, why don't you go hibernate for another couple of weeks? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Savage Beatings Posted July 21, 2006 Share Posted July 21, 2006 The main thing that a Bush holdout impacts is the future of Michael Bennett. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Score 1 Posted July 21, 2006 Share Posted July 21, 2006 (edited) So what exactly are you saying? I'm saying that a high draft picks agent, angling for the best possible contract for their client and starting off with a high $$$ number IS NOTHING NEW...NOR UNEXPECTED! Happens EVERY SINGLE DRAFT! Let me know when there's some real news. Edited July 21, 2006 by Big Score 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goopster24 Posted July 21, 2006 Share Posted July 21, 2006 (edited) Alex Smith wasn't a true No. 1 draft pick. He wouldn't have been close to No. 1 any other year. No matter what happens in the future with Reggie Bush, if he cures the world of AIDS or anything else, people will still hate him because he was amazing and basically has everything, simple as that. Edited July 21, 2006 by Goopster24 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Score 1 Posted July 21, 2006 Share Posted July 21, 2006 Alex Smith wasn't a true No. 1 draft pick. He wouldn't have been close to No. 1 any other year. No matter what happens in the future with Reggie Bush, if he cures the world of AIDS or anything else, people will still hate him because he was amazing and basically has everything, simple as that. So true. I call it Bush envy (& not George Dumbya Bush) . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swiss Cheezhead Posted July 21, 2006 Share Posted July 21, 2006 Listen, fellas -- as in most things, the "truth" lies somewhere in the middle. Here's a list of things I believe have some meaningful validity on this subject: 1. The Sporting News article rajn quoted is hardly EVER mentioned in these discussions, but it's one of the only pertinent, source-based pieces of information involved. 2. That same TSN article can't be considered 100% gospel, since there's been overwhelming (albeit speculative and uproven) evidence that Reggie Bush's financial demands were so ridiculous that they HAD to be some sort of factor in Houston's decision. Jason Cole wrote an article for MSNBC.com, for example, in which he reported that Charley Casserly wanted to select Bush, but Kubiak "overruled" him (and Bob McNair supported Kubiak...and the cheaper player). I wrote to Cole personally, and he cited a source within the organization. So, that flies in the face of the characterization that Casserly gave to TSN and the rest of the media. 3. If you believe with certainty that the overwhelming, yet speculative and unproven "evidence" is the "truth" -- i.e. INSTEAD of what TSN reported as fact -- then you're leaping to a gigantic conclusion involving a conspiracy of either (a) the Texans to completely feed LIES to the TSN reporter or (b ) TSN AND the Texans to mislead the public, for some sort of mutual gain. I can't make that leap, personally, mostly because I consider TSN one of the most reliable sources out there. 4. Reggie Bush isn't a bad human being, but it's reasonable to believe, based on a variety of factors already discussed here, that he's capable of some very questionable, self-serving decisions that contradict what MOST sports fans want to see out of our sports stars. Much of his PR campaign has been targeted at the residents of the rebuilding Gulf Coast community, where it's certainly working. To others, like myself and Bronco Billy, it has come across like...well...nothing but a big PR campaign. Still, again, he's not one of the true "bad guys" in sports and, until he's convicted of a crime (like many other athletes), he'll stay off that list. 5. This situation, contrary to what BS1 and others are saying (with overuse of the sarcastic graemlins, I might add) IS VERY NEWSWORTHY. This time of year, contract negotiations ARE the NFL news. While it's not "surprising," per se, that a high draft pick might hold out, it IS surprising that so many Huddlers here are acting like this isn't worthy of discussion. Everyone is free to spend their day on CNN.com. 6. This story isn't just newsworthy because of the time of year; this simply isn't "just another negotiation." As BB mentioned, the gap between player and team usually isn't as huge as it appears to be in this case. Because of that, it's more reasonable to EXPECT a holdout -- and possibly one that's lengthier than usual. 7. It's also extremely newsworthy because of one thing: HOLDOUTS ARE STUPID. Ask any NFL veteran, of varying degrees of success in the league, what kind of advice they'd give to rookies and they all say the same thing: "Get into camp on time!" Yeah, you can give me the "players should get every nickel while they can" speech, and I've used it before myself, but I think the rules are different for rookies. The long-term direction of their entire CAREERS can be, and often is, dependent on how much playing time they EARN in their rookie year. Playing time for rookies is HUGELY dependent on their first training camp. I certainly don't have statistics to back this up, but I'd bet the farm that, out of all rookies who hold out, FAR more end up being NFL "busts" than go on to HoF careers, like Emmitt Smith. Reggie Bush seemed to understand that when he informed the PUBLIC that he told his agents to make sure he is in camp on time. However, when we're in late July and the two sides are seemingly millions of dollars apart (a reasonable assumption) AND his MARKETING agent is issuing propaganda leverage against the team, Bush's initial comments about being in camp seem just like another example of PR lip service. And, although this post is definitely long enough, I need to say something on the contract figures rajn posted on page 2... First of all, the guaranteed money is the only thing that matters when comparing one rookie contract to another. And, especially in regard to guaranteed money -- in the form of myriad types of bonuses -- concrete contract figures are pretty much impossible to verify. Plus, even the term "guaranteed money" can be defined subjectively. I'll just put it this way: the agents for the players drafted all around Dewayne Robertson ALL have way better access to NFL contracts than "Wahoo" from SaintsReport.com, yet NONE of those agents were able to figure out how much Robertson got paid. If they had, they would have demanded more money for their own clients. Don't get me wrong -- I enjoyed looking over the figures, since they're the best we've got. But there were only a couple of "alleged" examples and they can't be verified. That's all I'm saying. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bronco Billy Posted July 21, 2006 Author Share Posted July 21, 2006 Well done, Mr. Cheezhead, on all accounts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swiss Cheezhead Posted July 21, 2006 Share Posted July 21, 2006 Well done, Mr. Cheezhead, on all accounts. Why, thank you. I honestly don't think any of it is disputable. That's what's nice about taking a "moderate" stance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cordo Posted July 21, 2006 Share Posted July 21, 2006 blah blah blah I'll just put it this way: the agents for the players drafted all around Dewayne Robertson ALL have way better access to NFL contracts than "Wahoo" from SaintsReport.com ... blah blah blah Source: Pro Football Weekly. Contract terms for first rounders, 2000-2006. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swiss Cheezhead Posted July 21, 2006 Share Posted July 21, 2006 Source: Pro Football Weekly. Contract terms for first rounders, 2000-2006. That's all you got? I didn't say the figures are inaccurate. I just said they're not verifiable and a lot of them can be subjectively "measured." I read a lot of contract breakdowns on PFT and, if you haven't done the same, it's very complicated and the sources are always anonymous. The NFL can't give the numbers out, it's usually not in any team's best interest to release them, and agents -- the only other entity with explicit knowledge -- are always biased. That's why there are a lot of "conflicting" reports of true contract values. Still, as a New Orleans fan, what's your argument? That Bush demanding to be paid more than the #1 pick is a reasonable one? If that's the case, how would you feel if Bush actually holds out, after essentially promising to be in camp on time? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swiss Cheezhead Posted July 21, 2006 Share Posted July 21, 2006 Forgot to finish my thought... If I were a Saints fan, the idea that there's a good chance Bush won't be in camp on time would bother me significantly. I mean, outsiders can just look at Reggie Bush as a whole, but fans of the team should really, really care about whether a player like Bush puts himself in the best position to contribute. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cordo Posted July 21, 2006 Share Posted July 21, 2006 (edited) That's all you got? I didn't say the figures are inaccurate. I just said they're not verifiable and a lot of them can be subjectively "measured." I read a lot of contract breakdowns on PFT and, if you haven't done the same, it's very complicated and the sources are always anonymous. The NFL can't give the numbers out, it's usually not in any team's best interest to release them, and agents -- the only other entity with explicit knowledge -- are always biased. That's why there are a lot of "conflicting" reports of true contract values. Still, as a New Orleans fan, what's your argument? That Bush demanding to be paid more than the #1 pick is a reasonable one? If that's the case, how would you feel if Bush actually holds out, after essentially promising to be in camp on time? In the original thread on SR, I was simply making a point that, based on the available information, it is not clearly evident that the salaries are slotted and the higher draft pick always makes more than a lower pick. There has certainly been several cases where it's debatable, nothing more nothing less. (edit to add): Alot of posters were making the argument, as has been made here, that Bush should not be asking for #1 money, he was picked at 2, he should get 2 money -- my point was, it's not quite that black and white. For the second part -- well, draft night Benson said he would make sure Bush got paid and in camp on time as well, so who is the villian ? I simply see it all as standard business in the NFL, but my leanings tend to side with the players in most, if not all, cases. Edited July 21, 2006 by Cordo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bronco Billy Posted July 21, 2006 Author Share Posted July 21, 2006 but my leanings tend to side with the players in most, if not all, cases. Why is that? Seriously - not just stick a barb in you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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