Same old Moss?

[T-Scorp]

Very interesting to listen to Michaels and Madden cooing over Moss last night, especially after his big catch. At one point Madden was touting how Moss was attracting triple coverage underneath allowing Collins to find an open receiver down the field (of course when they replayed the play Moss had only one defender near him.. )

 

However, Randy looked very uniterested in this game. He dropped two easy catches and the weak attempt at the 2 point conversion catch was classic Moss during a loss.

 

Collins is no Culpepper (despite what Randy claimed after mini camps about Collins reading the field much better than C-pep. (When was the last time C-pep went 18-41??) Kerry was facing a great defense but still missed a lot of open receivers.

 

I guess my main point is this...a lot of sports shows have been talkig about how Minnesota won't be better offensively this year after giving away the most potent WR in the game. The ESPN guys must have said it 5 times last night on the pregame. I think someone (Young maybe) actually said you can't have addition by subtraction. (Young was the same guy who condemded Moss after the " in Lambeau" and now says that the Vikings should have kept him?? :doah: ). However, last night was typical Randy Moss...he had a good game (if you take away his one 73 yard TD his night was pedestrian -- 4 for 56 yards) but the team lost!!! You could already see Collins forcing the ball to Randy on quite a few plays. On the flip side Anderson was WIDE OPEN due to Randy drawing triple coverage in the endzone.

 

Randy will have 1500 yards and 15 TD's, Collins may have a career year... but Oakland may not even have a 500 record.

 

Meanwhile, we will see how the Vikings do with no Moss. The real test will be the improvement in records for Oakland (5-11) and Minnesota (8-8).

[giantsfan]

While I agree Moss dropped 1 easy pass and made NO effort for the ball on the 2 pt play he makes QB's better that can't be argued. As for looking at the teams records that is very unfair IMO. If Minny just lost Moss I'd agree, but how can we compare records when Minny added P. Williams, Cowart, Harris, Sharper, and Smoot on D. So how is it fair to say lets look at the records. On paper the Vikes are the 2nd best team in the NFC IMO. As for Oakland they will win 5 or 6 games again this year. They have NO D and a tough schedule. Their O will score a lot of points I think but they are a bad team period. Is that Moss' fault? They have no D can't blame Moss for that.

[Pope Flick]

His giving up on the 2 point play - how does he not even try shows what a punk he still is. Sure getting back one onsides is hard but giving up condemned them to needing 2 and the loss.

 

That play was the answer to Madden's question: how are the Vikings better without Moss? They have no cancer now, that's how.

[vansmack32]

it's all well and good to talk smack about moss, but this is FANTASY FOOTBALL. we shouldn't care what the Raiders' or Vikes' record is. Bottom line is, based on last night, Moss is still a monster and collins could be a top-5 fantasy qb.

[T-Scorp]

While I agree Moss dropped 1 easy pass and made NO effort for the ball on the 2 pt play he makes QB's better that can't be argued. As for looking at the teams records that is very unfair IMO. If Minny just lost Moss I'd agree, but how can we compare records when Minny added P. Williams, Cowart, Harris, Sharper, and Smoot on D. So how is it fair to say lets look at the records. On paper the Vikes are the 2nd best team in the NFC IMO. As for Oakland they will win 5 or 6 games again this year. They have NO D and a tough schedule. Their O will score a lot of points I think but they are a bad team period. Is that Moss' fault? They have no D can't blame Moss for that.

 

977868[/snapback]

 

 

 

 

 

You actually make my point with your response. The Vikings traded Moss and then spent money on other players (would they have done that had they still had Moss' big contract?? I'm not sure)

 

As for Oakland not having a D, then instead of getting Moss and Jordan they should have gotten so defensive players.

 

I think it is fair to look at records, afterall that is the point of making the trade, right, both teams thought the trade would make them better.

[Wizards]

it's all well and good to talk smack about moss, but this is FANTASY FOOTBALL.  we shouldn't care what the Raiders' or Vikes' record is.  Bottom line is, based on last night, Moss is still a monster and collins could be a top-5 fantasy qb.

 

977899[/snapback]

 

 

 

 

 

 

Couldn't have said it better myself!!

[Chadman]

A prediction from a homer who proposed the thought of trading Moss two years ago to improve the defense: just wait until the Raiders get to mid-season and they are not winning. The only way they will be able to sustain any kind of hopes of winning will be to feature the running game, IMO. If you think Moss looked disinterested in game one, just wait to see how he acts if they try to run the ball, Collins misses him on a few of the plays he actually tries on, and the Vikings are cruising at about 6-2 or so, with Culpepper hitting ALL his receivers. This, coming from a guy who enjoyed Moss' awesome TDs more than most, and still has a purple #84 jersey.

 

Once the Patriots shifted to the 4-man front, slowed the run, and pressured Collins, Moss was not an issue. I predict more of the same if any defensive coaches get ahold of the game films of last nights game. There is nobody better at going up in between defenders to grab a ball than Moss, and probably nobody that draws more attention at WR. But that is offset by his lack of effort on any other play that does not include #18 in it. Net gain? Probably a little for both teams.

 

Addition by subtraction is EXACTLY the right way to look at it, in my opinion. Bye, Randy. Good riddance. "Enjoy the season."

Edited September 9, 2005 by Chadman

[1stimer]

His giving up on the 2 point play - how does he not even try shows what a punk he still is. Sure getting back one onsides is hard but giving up condemned them to needing 2 and the loss.

 

977886[/snapback]

 

 

 

Actually, I think the 16 penalties and 149 yards lost had more to do with the Raiders losing the game than the not even half-hearted attempt to catch a 2pt conversion.

 

Seemed like they were moving backwards more than forwards most of the time.

[giantsfan]

You actually make my point with your response. The Vikings traded Moss and then spent money on other players (would they have done that had they still had Moss' big contract?? I'm not sure)

 

As for Oakland not having a D, then instead of getting Moss and Jordan they should have gotten so defensive players. 

 

I think it is fair to look at records, afterall that is the point of making the trade, right, both teams thought the trade would make them better.

 

977902[/snapback]

 

 

 

Again I don't get how you are making your point. You statement now is "As for Oakland not having a D, then instead of getting Moss and Jordan they should have gotten so defensive players" that may be 100000% true but why should Moss be judged on that? Because Davis didn't get any D which means Oak has no chance to win is Moss' fault? As for Minny they added like 5 or 6 new D starters so how can we say well if Minny is better it's because they have no Moss. That is not fair either.

 

Look I don't like Moss I think he is a pr**k and gives up on plays and games sometimes, but to say we'll tell all based on wins and losses when Minny is a MUCH MUCH better team than Oak and they went out and added VERY VERY good players on their D while Oak added NO players to an AWFUL D is unfair to Moss. We have to be fair here.

[Big Score 1]

Did you guys see how deep the Pats Safties were positioned? They could not cheat up to the line in run support. Certainly made Jordan's job easier. That's the impact of Moss right there.

 

Problem for the Raiders is the Defense. They did look better at stopping the run, than last years version.

 

But that Pass Defense

 

Randy will make the offense better and there is no doubt about that, but he doesn't impact their Defense and that will be the Raiders Achilles Heel all season long.

[Bombs Away]

I agree with Moss was a cancer at Minny, but he is still the most talented WR in the league. He showed it last night. He will open lanes for the other WR's and Jordan.

 

They key to last night was the forced interception on Collins when it was 17-14. Up to that point it was anyone's game. That play was a mommentum shifter. Janikowski missed a FG.

 

The Pats defense still looked good, Jordan got some tough yards. Considering everything, I believe the Raiders played pretty well against the superbowl champs. I was impressed with the Raiders run defense, Dillon had 2 TD's, but on ly had 63 yds on 23 carries. Oakland did force the Pats to punt 8 times

 

Should be a fantasy feast next week for the Raiders at home against the Chiefs

[giantsfan]

Moss will be a top 3 at worst WR in fantasy terms and Collins will be a top 10 QB in fantasy terms. In here that's what's important. As for the other stuff Moss is a cancer and Minny was smart in dealing him I think, but it still isn't fair to say Minny is better simply because they dealt Moss. No Minny is better because they added 5 or 6 new very good starters on D. That's why they're better and have a real chance at the SB if Tice stays out of the way and just picks 1 RB and sticks with him.

[Outshined]

Again I don't get how you are making your point. You statement now is "As for Oakland not having a D, then instead of getting Moss and Jordan they should have gotten so defensive players" that may be 100000% true but why should Moss be judged on that? Because Davis didn't get any D which means Oak has no chance to win is Moss' fault? As for Minny they added like 5 or 6 new D starters so how can we say well if Minny is better it's because they have no Moss. That is not fair either.

 

Look I don't like Moss I think he is a pr**k and gives up on plays and games sometimes, but to say we'll tell all based on wins and losses when Minny is a MUCH MUCH better team than Oak and they went out and added VERY VERY good players on their D while Oak added NO players to an AWFUL D is unfair to Moss. We have to be fair here.

 

977917[/snapback]

 

 

 

 

I don't think T-Scorp was comparing Oak Vs Min and who has a better record. He was stating which team will improve from last years record.

[Pope Flick]

Actually, I think the 16 penalties and 149 yards lost had more to do with the Raiders losing the game than the not even half-hearted attempt to catch a 2pt conversion.

 

Seemed like they were moving backwards more than forwards most of the time.

 

977915[/snapback]

 

 

 

 

 

Well, it's all rolled into one. On a successful 2 point, even given all the penalties, they would have been 1 possession away from a potential tie score. As soon as he gave up, game over.

 

Once you stop playing to win, you lose.

[T-Scorp]

Again I don't get how you are making your point. You statement now is "As for Oakland not having a D, then instead of getting Moss and Jordan they should have gotten so defensive players" that may be 100000% true but why should Moss be judged on that? Because Davis didn't get any D which means Oak has no chance to win is Moss' fault? As for Minny they added like 5 or 6 new D starters so how can we say well if Minny is better it's because they have no Moss. That is not fair either.

 

Look I don't like Moss I think he is a pr**k and gives up on plays and games sometimes, but to say we'll tell all based on wins and losses when Minny is a MUCH MUCH better team than Oak and they went out and added VERY VERY good players on their D while Oak added NO players to an AWFUL D is unfair to Moss. We have to be fair here.

 

977917[/snapback]

 

 

 

 

 

I heard all during the pregame how the Vikings could not be a better team with out Moss and that the Raiders were a much better team with him. To me that means the Vikings record should be worse and the Raiders better.

 

Moss is regarded as an impact player, his stats over his first 7 years are incredible. However, the Vikings never made it to a SB. While there are many reasons as to why, Moss never got them to the promised land.

 

Now, if Peyton Manning was traded to the Raiders would you expect the Raiders to win more or less games? Would the Colts be better or worse? (I use Manning as he is also regarded as one of the best at his position but can't get his team to the SB).

 

Again, you trade players to improve your team and thus improve your record. I don't know of any other way to measure the outcome of a trade.

[MrTed46]

Is it me or is Moss SCARED of being hit?

He drops SO many balls thrown to him when he hears footsteps but when its a sprint downfield for the ball he catches it.

 

This is where IMHO T.O and Moss seperates. They both have great hands, but TO can catch in traffic and open field. Moss seems petrified of getting a hard hit...if its ever in a situation where someone with momentum can level him his hands get shackey.

 

He needs to grow a pair and catch the ball when thrown to...we all know he has the ability of catching.

 

And he needs more sportsmanship...which the trend seems with the best WRs in the game is hard to find.

[kraftykraft]

Eh, I am thinking that the Raiders will go around .500 this year. The defense and Kerry Collins sporadic play will keep them from going much farther than that.

 

Last night, I saw a lot of the Kerry Collins that I saw last year--not looking off receivers, forcing the ball into coverage. On the plus side, the Raiders ran pretty decently against the current world champs, which was a definite upgrade from last year's crappy running game. Also on the plus side, Kerry Collins did throw away the ball on several occasions, as opposed to throwing it in a bad situation for an INT. That's a positive.

 

As for how Moss plays on a team that will probably not make the playoffs, I really can't say. He did bail out on a couple plays last night, and that needs to change. But on a fantasy level, he still had a heck of a game.

[Bombs Away]

if Tice stays out of the way and just picks 1 RB and sticks with him.

 

977935[/snapback]

 

 

 

I agreee with you on everything. The RB situation needs to be resolved. Moore needs to be the starter, but he's already started with the ankle deal again Bennett is not a starting RB. Culpepper is the heart of the time, and he should have an MVP year.

Edited September 9, 2005 by Bombs Away

[Primetime9287]

it's all well and good to talk smack about moss, but this is FANTASY FOOTBALL.  we shouldn't care what the Raiders' or Vikes' record is.  Bottom line is, based on last night, Moss is still a monster and collins could be a top-5 fantasy qb.

 

977899[/snapback]

 

 

 

 

Collins better complete more than 47% of his passes if he is going ot be a top5 fantasy QB. If you ask me, Collins looked like crap besides the deep ball to Moss.

[Whiskey Pimp]

He showed it last night.  He will open lanes for the other WR's and Jordan.

 

977929[/snapback]

 

 

 

 

He did open lanes, but Collins decided to throw everything at Moss (or over Moss or beside Moss) instead of going to the open lanes. The Pats were playing deep so why not keep pounding Jordan to bring the Pats back to the line? Either poor play calling or poor execution by Collins is what caused the Raiders to lose (well, added to the fact that the Raiders pass D is horrendous).

[bok_choy]

5-130-1 against the Pats in the first game of the season?

 

Hell sign me up for that every week.... oh, the Raiders lost?

 

Thats cool too -- just keep throwing the ball to Randy please Kerry.

 

And another thing-- how can you speculate as to how "interested" a guy is in the game from where we sit?

 

Does that mean that if someday Randy finds more interest in the game -- or maybe gets more passionate about the game, his numbers will be better? Keep in mind that his career numbers are pretty much the same as Jerry Rice.....

 

Randy isnt the reason the Vikes couldnt get over the hurdle...and he wont be the reason why Oak is a crap team again this year. ...ball control and defense wins in the NFL.

 

BUT in this forum, in FF land, Randy is ok by me

[gilthorp]

There were two punks on the field last night.

 

One of them actually produced and had a decent night. As a football player, Moss is tough to like, because he just makes everything look so easy when things are going good, and makes everything look so bad when he's making mistakes or loafing. Remember, the camera is on this guy all the time.

 

Love him for fantasy. Hate him as a player.

[alexgaddis]

Love him for fantasy. Hate him as a player.

 

 

All Randy cares about is himself! This makes him great for fantasy football...as a Viking fan, I couldn't be happier to see him gone...

 

Go score long touchdowns and put up stats and watch your team lose

 

[kpholmes]

But, all in all...

Moss did make a huge impact last night. Try thinking about how the game would have gone if they had an additional first round rookie, and napoleon harris... I think Moss added to it. Yea, he had afew dropped balls, but he had over a hundred yards, and like mentioned before, Jordan didn't have to fight any safeties to pick up yards, and could catch passes in the flats with room to work. And yea, Collins isnt too shabby...

 

Raiders just need to start using this more. Hand to Jordan more, hit Porter and Curry underneath when moss draws the double/tripple coverage deep...

 

And I'm sure we can all excpect some defensive players drafted next season, but you must admit, the rush defense was much much improved. Puting Sapp back on the inside made a difference.

[Bombs Away]

He did open lanes, but Collins decided to throw everything at Moss (or over Moss or beside Moss) instead of going to the open lanes.  The Pats were playing deep so why not keep pounding Jordan to bring the Pats back to the line?  Either poor play calling or poor execution by Collins is what caused the Raiders to lose (well, added to the fact that the Raiders pass D is horrendous).

 

977962[/snapback]

 

 

 

I honestly believed Turner would have resorted to his old Cowboy game plans, which was start the game by passing, playaction, have some success passing, and then pound Jordan like Norv did with Emmitt. Yes Jordan is not Emmitt, but he proved he can get the tough yards. They did abandon the run to quickly in the 2nd half.

 

Face it guys, the Pats secondary is still formidable. Collins was forced into dumping quite a few balls to avoid the sack, that in itself was a success, instead of throwing the interception. The one int was typical Collins lack of mobility. He will get stronger as the season progresses.