Being fined/jailed for not having health insurance is the same as not carrying automotive insurance

[Caveman_Nick]

Anybody else amused by all the people who shriek the loudest about people freeloading at the ER now shrieking loudly again when a president they hate actually does something about it?

 

Ironic, isn't it?

 

 

Your ability to spin is amazing.

[AtomicCEO]

How about we just start with the Billions of dollars of stimulus money wasted without

creating any new jobs. Money that will need repaid in the form of new taxes down the road.

Now they want to spend more money that we don't have.

 

Why don't you tell me where all that money went?

It sure wasn't to help the economy, because it's still in the tank.

 

When there was a lesser recession under Bush and a Republican congress, what did they do?

(hint: it rhymes with "bimulus")

[Perchoutofwater]

“I think the general broad principle is simply that people who are paying for their health insurance aren't subsidizing folks who simply choose not to until they get sick and then suddenly they expect free health insurance. That's -- that's basic concept of responsibility that I think most Americans abide by,” Mr. Obama said, “penalties are appropriate for people who try to free ride the system and force others to pay for their health insurance.”

 

Have to agree here!

 

I like the idea of people actually paying for services they receive. This is a new concept to many on the left. I just don't know if what is being proposed in constitutional. I also question how many of the illegals will be paying for it, you know them not wanting to mess with documentation and all. I still say the best thing to do have something like an insurance voucher program paid for via a sales tax where every US citizen gets a voucher. I'd also use the sales tax for emergency care of illegals, and deportations costs.

 

Anybody else amused by all the people who shriek the loudest about people freeloading at the ER now shrieking loudly again when a president they hate actually does something about it?

 

Ironic, isn't it?

 

The bill brings up several constitutional questions, and it is going to be very rough on small and medium size businesses and their employees, particularly in a time of a recession. I bet someone that if Obama was elected that by 2012 we would have double digit unemployment. Looks like I was right, though it happened faster than I envisioned. If this bill passes once it is actually enacted unemployment will probably spike by another 2-3%. But I'm glad it makes everyone pay for their own coverage, oh wait it doesn't do that does it, it makes employers do most of the heavy lifting. The only ones that will actually be paying for their own will be the poor souls that lose their jobs as a result of their employer's overhead gong through the roof. I doubt very seriously the illegals in the ER will be paying because they are UNDOCUMENTED. Going back to the poor analogy of car insurance, guess what group is the most likely not to have insurance even if their state mandates it? Yep, you guessed it those undocumented workers.

[CaP'N GRuNGe]

Those undocumented workers wouldn't even be here if your brothers and sisters in the construction and other industries didn't hire them.

[muck]

Those undocumented workers wouldn't even be here if your brothers and sisters in the construction and other industries didn't hire them.

 

Sure they would.

 

Why? Any kid born here, even if the mom is here illegally, is a US citizen. That's a big deal to this demographic. That, plus the free healthcare here in the US is better than the free healthcare in Mexico, so, if you're sick, it's better to be here than in Mexico City. That's a big deal, too.

[TimC]

(hint: it rhymes with "bimulus")

 

Ihavealargepenisulus?

[wiegie]

I bet someone that if Obama was elected that by 2012 we would have double digit unemployment.

I am VERY willing to bet you that unemployment will be less than 10% by 2012. How about $100.

Edited November 11, 2009 by wiegie

[Outshined]

If only health insurance cost $50 bucks a month....(total)

Edited November 11, 2009 by Outshined

[evil_gop_liars]

Those undocumented workers wouldn't even be here if your brothers and sisters in the construction and other industries didn't hire them.

 

But they are a vital part to our agricultural industry.

 

We want them to pick our fruit for pennies but we don't want them to have health issues.

 

or redbulls.

[wiegie]

as for the initial thread topic, this op-ed from today's WSJ is relevant:

 

NOVEMBER 11, 2009

Why We Need a Strong Individual Mandate .ArticleComments (4)more in Opinion ».EmailPrinter

 

By JANET TRAUTWEIN

 

After the House passed a sweeping health-care bill over the weekend, President Barack Obama called on the Senate to "take the baton and bring this effort to the finish line."

 

He's right. Lawmakers still have a long way to go to ensure that the bill that lands on the president's desk fixes our system's shortcomings.

 

One of the key issues to address is the individual mandate, which would require individuals to purchase health insurance. If the Senate fails to adopt a strong mandate as the House did, health-care costs will increase at a faster rate than they have in the past and as a result, vast numbers of Americans will remain uninsured.

 

Why will costs increase? Because in addition to the individual mandate, two provisions that have become part of every reform bill advancing in Congress require insurers to sell policies to anyone who wants it but without charging premiums based on a person's health status. These provisions are aimed at making insurance affordable for anyone with chronic or other costly medical conditions.

 

The problem is that these provisions can make insurance a lot more expensive. Insurance is fundamentally a mechanism for spreading risk. If only high-risk people sign up, insurance will become very expensive for everyone who buys a policy. However, if a lot of low-risk people also pay into the system, there will be more money to take care of those who need expensive services than if fewer low-risk people pay in. If everyone carries insurance, in short, premiums will be a lot lower for everyone.

 

To make sure that more low-risk, lower-cost patients buy health insurance, the health reforms proposed in Congress also require everyone to carry insurance on a continual basis. But the problem is that the penalty for violating this mandate is too low to create a strong incentive to actually do so.

 

Sen. Max Baucus (D., Mont.), for example, is pushing a bill that would impose a $200 fine on anyone who decides not to buy insurance starting in 2013. By 2018, that fine would increase to $750.

 

This is way too low. By the time the mandate is in full force, the price of the average individual health-insurance plan is expected to be $5,000, according to the Congressional Budget Office.

 

With the price of insurance far outstripping the cost of the fine, there will be a compelling reason for many people to pay the fine and only buy insurance when in need of some form of pricey care. In other words, in the absence of a robust individual mandate, healthy, low-risk patients—12.6 million of them, according to a recent study from consulting firm Oliver Wyman—would opt out of the insurance market and wait until they are sick to buy insurance. Why pay monthly premiums if you can get insurance when you need it?

 

The net result of requiring insurers to sell a policy to anyone who wants it (and charge them the same regardless of their health conditions) is that high-risk patients and those who have bought insurance so that they can get immediate pricey services would make up a disproportionate share of the insurance pool. This will drive up the cost of health insurance. Without a strong mandate, the premiums for a newly enrolled family would increase about $3,300 each year within the first five years of reform, according to the Oliver Wyman study.

 

To mitigate the effect of easy access to coverage, the individual mandate must include a penalty somewhat comparable to the price of buying insurance.

 

Imagine that parking tickets were only 25 cents. Would drivers have much reason to feed parking meters? The answer, of course, is no. Paying a fine would be cheaper than putting a dollar or more into a meter. A weak individual mandate would have the same result. Cash-strapped Americans—particularly healthy ones—would pay the fine and still not get insurance.

 

Congress has rightly set out to both expand insurance coverage and reduce health-care costs for all Americans. But without an effective and enforceable individual mandate that guarantees the participation of everyone, neither goal is attainable.

[Azazello1313]

well, if you're counting on creating a system where all the old, sick people freeload on the young healthy people, pretty much the only way to make that work is to hang a pretty big threat over the heads of the young healthy people to get them to go along. if you don't, then they just don't get insurance until and unless they get sick and they pay the $750 fine or whatever. so if you want the whole thing to work, you have to be able to threaten them with a bigger fine, jail time, or something else that will actually have some teeth.

[bushwacked]

I am VERY willing to bet you that unemployment will be less than 10% by 2012. How about $100.

 

Perch, I want action on this also; $200, let me know.

[i_am_the_swammi]

I bet someone that if Obama was elected that by 2012 we would have double digit unemployment. Looks like I was right, though it happened faster than I envisioned.

 

 

We could have kept the Shrub in office, and we'd still have double-digit unemployment....except that it would have been 2-3 points higher than it is right now.

[dmarc117]

 

We could have kept the Shrub in office, and we'd still have double-digit unemployment....except that it would have been 2-3 points higher than it is right now.

 

 

the real unemployed number is closer to 18%

[Perchoutofwater]

I am VERY willing to bet you that unemployment will be less than 10% by 2012. How about $100.

 

 

Perch, I want action on this also; $200, let me know.

 

I've already got a $100 on it with Atomic or Grunge (I'd have to go back and search), that is all the action I want, but thanks for the offer.

Edited November 11, 2009 by Perchoutofwater

[Ursa Majoris]

well, if you're counting on creating a system where all the old, sick people freeload on the young healthy people, pretty much the only way to make that work is to hang a pretty big threat over the heads of the young healthy people to get them to go along. if you don't, then they just don't get insurance until and unless they get sick and they pay the $750 fine or whatever. so if you want the whole thing to work, you have to be able to threaten them with a bigger fine, jail time, or something else that will actually have some teeth.

You're right. If you want to avoid this problem the only way to ensure that everyone pays is to do it through taxation. Taxation is an existing mechanism that would need zero extra bureaucrats and would also serve to eliminate the insurance parasites.

[bpwallace49]

I've already got a $100 on it with Atomic or Grunge (I'd have to go back and search), that is all the action I want, but thanks for the offer.

 

A little less confident in your prediction now?

[CaP'N GRuNGe]

I've already got a $100 on it with Atomic or Grunge (I'd have to go back and search), that is all the action I want, but thanks for the offer.

 

I don't place wagers on an economy that can do what it did in such a short period of time.

[AtomicCEO]

I've already got a $100 on it with Atomic or Grunge (I'd have to go back and search), that is all the action I want, but thanks for the offer.

 

It was me

Edited November 11, 2009 by AtomicCEO

[dmarc117]

i would take perch's side of that bet.

[Yukon Cornelius]

i would take perch's side of that bet.

no..... really that is a big surprise.

[dmarc117]

no..... really that is a big surprise.

 

 

do you care to dance?

[Yukon Cornelius]

do you care to dance?

Polka or Line dancing ?

[cre8tiff]

do you care to dance?

 

This sounds like you are covering the $300 that perch won't... is that what you are saying? I'm sure weigie and bushwacked would be glad to hear it.

 

I can't gamble myself, it's against my religion.

[dmarc117]

Polka or Line dancing ?

 

 

i prefer the waltz