Irvin is Incredibly Stupid

[eags]

i think if you went back like five "greats" like irvin said, romo probably would be part indian. romo is just a hard working kid that finally was given a chance to show what he's made of. i think a couple of other guys by the names of brady and young went through the same thing.

go cowboys!

[junebugz]

[whomper]

not if you consider the Moore's

 

 

I think you mean the Moops

[Bronco Billy]

And so we stray off topic.

 

The question is not about racism and whether Romo is of mixed blood.

 

The question is whether Irvin should get away with a blatantly racist statement that would have immediately cost a white person their job had he make a statement of an equivalent nature, or if Irvin should be immune from discipline, implying that he can't help his stupidity because of his racial constitution.

 

Seems black & white - so to speak - to me.

[junebugz]

I would venture to say that if Romo's great-great-great-great-great grandma was alive and heard Irvin's comments she would be very offended.

[aqualung]

I would venture to say that if Romo's great-great-great-great-great grandma was alive and heard Irvin's comments she would be very offended.

 

 

 

Exactly.

 

What would he have to say if you would say anything about his mama?

[Cowboyz1]

DUDE I AM NOT A BIGOT!!!!! UNLIKE you and many blacks, whites, browns, yellows and what the hell else,,, I don't care what color someone is, JUST DON"T CARE!!,

 

 

 

Dude relax. This is just a brain sparing session. The fact, that you were stired enough to respond was very telling about your positive attitude towards the whole thing. Now if you read carefully, you will find out who the bigots are on this board. This whole excercise was to bring out strong feelings one way or another.

 

Funny thing is, I was born and raised in an all white town with my sister and me the only blacks in grammar school. I am so use to stupidity that I just let it roll off my back. Even more laughable, is that I still live in that all white town, and work in an all white industry, and 98% of my freinds are white. Even more laughable is that I was not the one who used "be" as a verb. Bigots are very funny though, especially when you pull them out in the open.

Edited November 27, 2006 by Cowboyz1

[Cowboyz1]

Cowboyz: You come on here spewing all this racist filth about Blacks being superior then get your panties in a wad and start calling people racist when they turn your hatred around on you. That is the typical double standard of blacks that we have come to expect in this country today. The "we can say whatever we want and its not racist because we are black" mantra that justifies the filth that you pour out. "Brother", you sound sick and very much like those Nation of Islam bigots. Its good to have pride in your people, but not to the point where you have to create lies to prop up what they have accomplished and denigrate other peoples to make you feel good about yourself. I hope you dont pass on your racist attitude and hatred to your kids, if they be knowin who day Daddy be...

 

 

 

[msaint]

I think you mean the Moops

 

 

Nah, I think he meant Roger...Michael...Melba....Dinty....

[Azazello1313]

Funny thing is, I was born and raised in an all white town with my sister and me the only blacks in grammer school.

 

:wince: not helping your cause here.

[Rockerbraves]

A white school principal at a predominately black school in my town got in trouble with the NAACP when some of his kids were acting up and he told them to behave and quit acting like monkeys. Now come on that is getting a little too sensitive, don't you think? He would have said the same thing no matter what color skin kids were acting up.

[Savage Beatings]

So were all agreed then? Good.

[Cowboyz1]

:wince: not helping your cause here.

 

 

 

Whatever, lost some street cred there I suppose. GRAMMAR. There feel better.

[Cowboyz1]

A white school principal at a predominately black school in my town got in trouble with the NAACP when some of his kids were acting up and he told them to behave and quit acting like monkeys. Now come on that is getting a little too sensitive, don't you think? He would have said the same thing no matter what color skin kids were acting up.

 

 

 

Absolutely. This is a common thing to say about kids. Though I prefer Wild Hibanchies, I don't want to offend any Hibanchi Americans.

Edited November 27, 2006 by Cowboyz1

[Avernus]

I think you mean the Moops

 

 

yeah, them too..

[Azazello1313]

cowboyz it seems to me what you're saying in this thread is that stereotypes that favor blacks (like athleticism) are, well, just plain obvious...but stereotypes that stigmatize blacks (like intelligence) are simply ignorant and racist. and i really don't think you can have it both ways there. you live by the stereotyping sword, you die by it.

 

like daboz has said in this thread (and i find this guy's thoughts to be the one GOOD thing about this thread), maybe there are some very broad differences between races based on evolutionary responses to different climates and such. but ultimately those differences are VERY minor, and NOT enough to draw stereotypical conclusions based on. tim dwight is faster than all except for maybe 1 in 10,000 black dudes, and condi rice is smarter than all except maybe 1 in 10,000 white dudes (grunge and ursa definitely being in the 9,999). i mean, take your average white guy off the street and you'll be able to find a whole bunch of black folks that are smarter than him and also a whole bunch that are worse athletes. so to generalize that blacks are better athletes or caucasians and asians are smarter are BOTH racist generalizations that serve no real purpose except to perpetuate ignorance through stereotyping.

 

now i agree that stereotyping intelligence is a little more hurtful and insulting than stereotyping athleticism, and i agree that racial stereotypes targeted at historically oppressed racial minorites are much more evil and in need of being called-out than "reverse" stereotypes. but still, i don't think a prominent black dude on TV making an idiotic racist comment ought to be continually given a free pass. black racism is a major problem in our society IMO, not because it oppresses WHITE people, but because it oppresses BLACK people. i mean, i'm white and i'm not oppressed one iota when a black kid grows up learning to be suspicious of every white person he meets. but i would argue HE is.

 

there seem to be two major approaches to solving the racial issues in our society: one approach is to view minority racial groups as distinct from the majority, and to try and boost them up and glorify them. the second approach is try and eliminate the concept of viewing people differently based on their skin color. the first approach, IMO, is the failed idea of segregation, "seperate but equal". unfortunately, it is also the driving idea behind the post-1970s "civil rights" movements emphasizing "black pride" and the like. the second approach is the path shown to us by MLK, jr...judge a man by the content of his character, not the color of his skin. IMO this is the ONLY way to a racially just society. and getting there means calling out ANYBODY who perpetuates ignorant racial stereotypes, whether they're white OR black.

[The Misfit]

I recently learned about Project Implicit, a study that's been ongoing from Harvard (and a few other schools) for seven or eight years. You can even take some tests if you want to play around with it, or just look around for information: Project Implicit

 

A brief explanation:

Psychologists understand that people may not say what's on their minds either because they are unwilling or because they are unable to do so. The unwilling-unable distinction is like the difference between purposely hiding something from others and unconsciously hiding something from yourself. The Implicit Association Test makes it possible to penetrate both of these types of hiding. The IAT measures implicit attitudes and beliefs that people are either unwilling or unable to report.

 

 

What have they found so far? A couple of interesting things:

 

 

Implicit biases are pervasive. They appear as statistically "large" effects that are often shown by majorities of samples of Americans. Over 80% of web respondents show implicit negativity toward the elderly compared to the young; 75-80% of self-identified Whites and Asians show an implicit preference for racial White relative to Black.

 

People are often unaware of their implicit biases. Ordinary people, including the researchers who direct this project, are found to harbor negative associations in relation to various social groups (i.e., implicit biases) even while honestly (the researchers believe) reporting that they regard themselves as lacking these biases.

 

Implicit biases predict behavior. From simple acts of friendliness and inclusion to more consequential acts such as the evaluation of work quality, those who are higher in implicit bias have been shown to display greater discrimination. The published scientific evidence is rapidly accumulating. Over 200 published scientific investigations have made use of one or another version of the IAT.

 

People differ in levels of implicit bias. Implicit biases vary from person to person - for example as a function of the person’s group memberships, the dominance of a person’s membership group in society, consciously held attitudes, and the level of bias existing in the immediate environment. This last observation makes clear that implicit attitudes are modified by experience.

 

From the FAQ:

 

Is the common preference for White over Black in the Black-White attitude IAT a simple 'ingroup' preference -- for example, the same as liking members of one's family or feeling connected to people who come from one's hometown?

Answer: For White respondents, the automatic White preference may in some sense be an ingroup preference. However, the automatic White preference is more than that -- it is observed with similar strength among Asian Americans, for whom neither Black nor White is an ingroup. In this sense, the IAT may reflect an attitude that is learned through experience in a culture that does not regard Black Americans highly. Moreover, if the IAT result represented an ingroup preference exclusively, then Black Americans should show for their group the same level of automatic preference. We know that that is not the case. 50% of Black Americans show automatic Black preference, but the remaining half show an automatic White preference. We conclude from such data that the IAT preference is some combination of an automatic preference for one’s own, moderated by what one’s learns is regarded to be “good” in the larger culture.

 

Do Black participants show a preference for Black over White on the race attitude IAT?

Answer: Although the majority of White respondents show a preference for White over Black, the responses from Black respondents are more varied. Although some Black participants show liking for White over Black, others show no preference, and yet others show a preference for Black over White. Data collected from this website consistently reveal approximately even numbers of Black respondents showing a pro-White bias as show a pro-Black bias. Part of this might be understood as Black respondents experiencing the similar negative associations about their group from experience in their cultural environments, and also experiencing competing positive associations about their group based on their own group membership and that of close relations. For more information see Nosek, Banaji, & Greenwald, 2002.

[The Irish Doggy]

Racism makes me laugh

 

 

 

I like racism...but everyone is way too sensitive to enjoy it...

 

 

My crackahs.

[Avernus]

My crackahs.

 

 

[kingsleyjr]

And so we stray off topic.

 

The question is not about racism and whether Romo is of mixed blood.

 

The question is whether Irvin should get away with a blatantly racist statement that would have immediately cost a white person their job had he make a statement of an equivalent nature, or if Irvin should be immune from discipline, implying that he can't help his stupidity because of his racial constitution.

 

Seems black & white - so to speak - to me.

 

 

Thank goodness , a voice of reason. This topic is about Michael Irvin and how racist and incredibly stupid he is , not whether he is correct or not. I am against all racism , white against black, or vice versa. This is not the first really dumb thing he has said and I am sure not the last. But if Jimmy the Greek , Al Campannis and Rush Limbaugh are repremanded and/or fired then Irvin should get the same treatment.

[spain]

I recently learned about Project Implicit, a study that's been ongoing from Harvard (and a few other schools) for seven or eight years. You can even take some tests if you want to play around with it, or just look around for information: Project Implicit

 

A brief explanation:

Psychologists understand that people may not say what's on their minds either because they are unwilling or because they are unable to do so. The unwilling-unable distinction is like the difference between purposely hiding something from others and unconsciously hiding something from yourself. The Implicit Association Test makes it possible to penetrate both of these types of hiding. The IAT measures implicit attitudes and beliefs that people are either unwilling or unable to report.

What have they found so far? A couple of interesting things:

Implicit biases are pervasive. They appear as statistically "large" effects that are often shown by majorities of samples of Americans. Over 80% of web respondents show implicit negativity toward the elderly compared to the young; 75-80% of self-identified Whites and Asians show an implicit preference for racial White relative to Black.

 

People are often unaware of their implicit biases. Ordinary people, including the researchers who direct this project, are found to harbor negative associations in relation to various social groups (i.e., implicit biases) even while honestly (the researchers believe) reporting that they regard themselves as lacking these biases.

 

Implicit biases predict behavior. From simple acts of friendliness and inclusion to more consequential acts such as the evaluation of work quality, those who are higher in implicit bias have been shown to display greater discrimination. The published scientific evidence is rapidly accumulating. Over 200 published scientific investigations have made use of one or another version of the IAT.

 

People differ in levels of implicit bias. Implicit biases vary from person to person - for example as a function of the person’s group memberships, the dominance of a person’s membership group in society, consciously held attitudes, and the level of bias existing in the immediate environment. This last observation makes clear that implicit attitudes are modified by experience.

 

From the FAQ:

 

Is the common preference for White over Black in the Black-White attitude IAT a simple 'ingroup' preference -- for example, the same as liking members of one's family or feeling connected to people who come from one's hometown?

Answer: For White respondents, the automatic White preference may in some sense be an ingroup preference. However, the automatic White preference is more than that -- it is observed with similar strength among Asian Americans, for whom neither Black nor White is an ingroup. In this sense, the IAT may reflect an attitude that is learned through experience in a culture that does not regard Black Americans highly. Moreover, if the IAT result represented an ingroup preference exclusively, then Black Americans should show for their group the same level of automatic preference. We know that that is not the case. 50% of Black Americans show automatic Black preference, but the remaining half show an automatic White preference. We conclude from such data that the IAT preference is some combination of an automatic preference for one’s own, moderated by what one’s learns is regarded to be “good” in the larger culture.

 

Do Black participants show a preference for Black over White on the race attitude IAT?

Answer: Although the majority of White respondents show a preference for White over Black, the responses from Black respondents are more varied. Although some Black participants show liking for White over Black, others show no preference, and yet others show a preference for Black over White. Data collected from this website consistently reveal approximately even numbers of Black respondents showing a pro-White bias as show a pro-Black bias. Part of this might be understood as Black respondents experiencing the similar negative associations about their group from experience in their cultural environments, and also experiencing competing positive associations about their group based on their own group membership and that of close relations. For more information see Nosek, Banaji, & Greenwald, 2002.

 

Proving once again that nobody likes or wants to be surrounded by blacks. Even other blacks dont like them...

[crispirons]

Proving once again that nobody likes or wants to be surrounded by blacks. Even other blacks dont like them...

 

 

surrounded???? no. but when i go to the gentlemens clubs, the sista's just sort of know to come around by me.

[spain]

surrounded???? no. but when i go to the gentlemens clubs, the sista's just sort of know to come around by me.

 

Thats because they are used to supporting broke ass men... Now, I have burnt my share of coal and likes da sistas. But we werent really talking about dat...

[Cowboyz1]

cowboyz it seems to me what you're saying in this thread is that stereotypes that favor blacks (like athleticism) are, well, just plain obvious...but stereotypes that stigmatize blacks (like intelligence) are simply ignorant and racist. and i really don't think you can have it both ways there. you live by the stereotyping sword, you die by it.

 

like daboz has said in this thread (and i find this guy's thoughts to be the one GOOD thing about this thread), maybe there are some very broad differences between races based on evolutionary responses to different climates and such. but ultimately those differences are VERY minor, and NOT enough to draw stereotypical conclusions based on. tim dwight is faster than all except for maybe 1 in 10,000 black dudes, and condi rice is smarter than all except maybe 1 in 10,000 white dudes (grunge and ursa definitely being in the 9,999). i mean, take your average white guy off the street and you'll be able to find a whole bunch of black folks that are smarter than him and also a whole bunch that are worse athletes. so to generalize that blacks are better athletes or caucasians and asians are smarter are BOTH racist generalizations that serve no real purpose except to perpetuate ignorance through stereotyping.

 

now i agree that stereotyping intelligence is a little more hurtful and insulting than stereotyping athleticism, and i agree that racial stereotypes targeted at historically oppressed racial minorites are much more evil and in need of being called-out than "reverse" stereotypes. but still, i don't think a prominent black dude on TV making an idiotic racist comment ought to be continually given a free pass. black racism is a major problem in our society IMO, not because it oppresses WHITE people, but because it oppresses BLACK people. i mean, i'm white and i'm not oppressed one iota when a black kid grows up learning to be suspicious of every white person he meets. but i would argue HE is.

 

there seem to be two major approaches to solving the racial issues in our society: one approach is to view minority racial groups as distinct from the majority, and to try and boost them up and glorify them. the second approach is try and eliminate the concept of viewing people differently based on their skin color. the first approach, IMO, is the failed idea of segregation, "seperate but equal". unfortunately, it is also the driving idea behind the post-1970s "civil rights" movements emphasizing "black pride" and the like. the second approach is the path shown to us by MLK, jr...judge a man by the content of his character, not the color of his skin. IMO this is the ONLY way to a racially just society. and getting there means calling out ANYBODY who perpetuates ignorant racial stereotypes, whether they're white OR black.

 

 

 

Interesting point of view. However, what this all boils down to is this. It is human nature to be afraid and insecure in unfamiliar surroundings and around unfamiliar people. I make it a point to make a positive influence on every person I meet and stay out of trouble. Because, I know that I carry a very large burden, in that every time I act a fool that's just another reference that others can use against my race. Many blacks and whites don't get this concept. This thread has been read by a lot of huddlers and my comments were to be educational and provoking. Coming face to face with the reality that people use their points of reference when they are discussing people and if you were raised in an all white place your references are what you hear on TV, Radio and friends unless you do your own research. If you had one positive relationship with a member of another race then you can immediately say, hey, they are not all like that. However, this is not that case as many whites rarely have any contact with positive black people. Therefore, their only reference is that of what they see on TV which historically portrays blacks as Athletic, Entertaining, Gang Banging, Criminal, Drug Addicts. More recently we have more positive figures in the Media. However, people like Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton just keep making stupid mistakes which goes to further perpetuate the dumb$ss syndrome that Spain types can hold on to. I mean how do you screw a girl as a married Rev. and get her pregnant and still have the audacity to champion black causes. Makes me wonder if I'm all wet about the white black intelligence thing! I mean come on, how can he get away with that crap and still have anyone who takes him seriously. I have to be transparent about this because it bothers the $hit out of me. We as blacks have some strong leaders and some very weak ones, and we as a race had better start cleaning house and stop following stupidity lest we want to be called stupid as some have argued here. All in all bigots develop their opinions based on what they have seen over their lifetime. Sadly enough, many times minorities do a lot of things out of anger or frustration or just plain stupidity that end up making us all look bad. When you’re the minority then everything is magnified, even though the same things are going on in the majorities world they are easily swept under the proverbial rug. It's always good to have dialog about all this stuff though because if forces people to think about how they treat other people. Even bigots have to think long and hard about just how exposed they are willing to be!

Edited November 27, 2006 by Cowboyz1

[Lonestar]

Just curious cowboyz1, Do you think that MI should be reprimanded? I'f so what should the punishment be?