Jump to content

New Keeper League Disagreement Needs Arbiter


chehalas
 Share

Recommended Posts

My primary league moved to a being a keeper league. We did this at last year's draft so we are entering the first year where it will come into play. Unfortunately, we didn't articulate the rules very well so now there is a disagreement on interpretation--no big surprise!

 

Our rules were basically stated as follows:

 

• you can keep as many as you want

• you can't keep 1st or 2nd round picks

• if you keep a player, he costs you one draft pick higher than he was drafted (3rd rounder costs you a 2nd)

 

That was about it.

 

The question that now exists is, what happens if you pick up a player off of waivers? If was drafted by another player, does that draft position stay with the player or does he essentially revert to an undrafted free agent, thus representing the last pick in the draft?

 

For example, Carson Palmer was a 8th round pick and he was dropped. A guy picked him up and carried him all year. Now, he is suggesting that Palmer is this years 14th round pick, not the 7th round pick. He maintains that Palmer was picked up off of the waiver wire so he is essentially an undrafted free agent.

 

Two questions—how do most established keeper leagues work? Based on the situation as outlined above, what do you feel is the right thing to do?

 

Thanks for taking the time to chime in!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Waiver players like that would cost the 14th round. It does not matter if he was drafted by another team then cut. He was picked up off waivers and should be treated as such.

 

Agreed, once cut his "draft slot" is reset.

 

But, I would make it a point to clearly define what cost a waiver player is. With no set rule, I would treat them as costing the current year's last pick.

 

As to your question on what do established keeper leagues do.. thee is no set standard, I have seen literally hundreds of variations of keeper and dynasty leagues in terms of how many players you keep, what they cost if anything, how long a player can be kept, etc.

 

Come up with something you all enjoy and can agree to and stick with it for a while.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Well, if your rule is:

 

• if you keep a player, he costs you one draft pick higher than he was drafted (3rd rounder costs you a 2nd)

 

and Palmer was drafted in the 8th round, whoever keeps him loses a 7th round pick.

 

There's not much ambiguity in the rule.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

• if you keep a player, he costs you one draft pick higher than he was drafted (3rd rounder costs you a 2nd)

 

It seems to me your rules are crystal clear. Carson Palmer was drafted in the 8th round, he'd cost a 7th to keep.

 

 

Well, if your rule is:

 

• if you keep a player, he costs you one draft pick higher than he was drafted (3rd rounder costs you a 2nd)

 

and Palmer was drafted in the 8th round, whoever keeps him loses a 7th round pick.

 

There's not much ambiguity in the rule.

 

agree here

and you need to amend your rules especially for cases when the guy wasn't drafted at all

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Waiver players like that would cost the 14th round. It does not matter if he was drafted by another team then cut. He was picked up off waivers and should be treated as such.

 

I agree with Big John here. This explanation is how I would interpret the rule. Once you're cut, what position you were drafted at goes out the window. It looks like the only way to resolve this matter is for you all to agree upon an arbitrator to decide for you or take a league vote.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I agree with Big John here. This explanation is how I would interpret the rule. Once you're cut, what position you were drafted at goes out the window. It looks like the only way to resolve this matter is for you all to agree upon an arbitrator to decide for you or take a league vote.

 

+1

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I have to agree with Big John here (common sense wins out, and BJ is the champion of common sense).

 

A player acquired by a team gthrough waivers was not drafted by that team. Therefore, when that team declares which of its players are keepers, the draft position rule would not apply. To be consistent and have the kept player cost something, the cost ought to be the last round pick in the draft (since that player was acquired beyond the last round in the draft last year).

 

To do otherwise would force the owner to have to choose between what could possibly be 2 draft picks of the same round (in the Palmer case, between two 7th rounders, one of which he would have to discard) which would be inherently unfair. Why would Palmer acquired off the WW be any different than any other undrafted player acquired off the WW?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

• if you keep a player, he costs you one draft pick higher than he was drafted (3rd rounder costs you a 2nd)

 

The guy wanting to keep palmer has a good point, but unfortunately, the rule states pretty clearly that a keeper will cost you a draft pick one round higher than he was drafted. Plamer was drafted in the 8th round. Thus, to keep him, it would cost a 7th.

 

The rule makes no mention of players drafted, then placed on waivers....adding one now would be unfair to anyone who might have passed on him while he was on waivers. You should also not allow anyone acquired on waivers last yaer to be kept, since your rules don't clearly state the consequences of such a keeper.

 

Perhaps you can modify your rules for next year, but your ruling this year should be pretty black-and-white.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

While you're at it, you better add rules for traded players! As Bronco Billy noted, you could end up with a traded player who was drafted in same round as another of your players, then have to give up the same draft pick twice to keep both!

 

I'm with the group that says if a player is dropped from a team he loses his original draft number, and goes to the end of the list. BUT, you still need rules for what to do to keep TWO FA pickups!

 

Perhaps your rules could be: to keep 2 or more players with the same draft value, each succeeding one would cost one higher slot. Of course you then run into the same situation with players kept who already have that slot!

 

Looks to me, like this whole plan reeks with problems! Get a whole new system! :wacko:

 

In a keeper baseball league, we keep up to 5 players and they cost the first five draft slots no matter where you got them. If you only keep 4 you start the draft at #5, etc.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Asking for an arbitrator ruling is warm and fuzzy, but if I was in your league, I'd be pissed that rule isn't be interpreted as its written.

 

Suppose I had the chance to pick-up Palmer last year via waivers, but passed since I knew the rule was clear that he would cost me a 7th round pick. Now my opponenet picks him up, the rule gets changed, and now your deciding two weeks before the draft that it only costs him a 14th round pick? I'd be pretty furious.

 

In fairness to your league, you don't want to go down a slippery slope of negotiating various rules that impact the current season. Obviously, someone has a lot to gain by getting a ruling on something that already has a rule in place (even though the current parameters are weak).

 

Play by the rules as they exist today, and modify them for next season so there is no ambiguity.

Edited by i_am_the_swammi
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I would think he would have to be kept for a seven. This deters any deals where the guy that is in the #1 waiver wire slot could request that somebody drop a player as a part of that trade. He would then get to keep said player for a 14th pick. I could see this happening for a very high draft pick, say a second rounder.

 

Say TEAM A took Brees in the second round.

TEAM B has the first waiver position, and wants Brees.

TEAM B offers Randy Moss and Hasselbeck for Darren Sproles, and makes TEAM A agree to drop Brees. TEAM B now gets to keep Brees for a 14th round pick, which could throw the competetive balance off entirely.

 

I think team auction values or draft slots should stick with the player for the full season. This is much more prevelent in auction leagues, where guys will have to dump salary. If a guy decides that a hurt player costs way too much and he won't be able to keep him the next season, a different owner shouldn't be able to pick him right up and keep him for a quarter of that price.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I would think he would have to be kept for a seven. This deters any deals where the guy that is in the #1 waiver wire slot could request that somebody drop a player as a part of that trade. He would then get to keep said player for a 14th pick. I could see this happening for a very high draft pick, say a second rounder.

 

Say TEAM A took Brees in the second round.

TEAM B has the first waiver position, and wants Brees.

TEAM B offers Randy Moss and Hasselbeck for Darren Sproles, and makes TEAM A agree to drop Brees. TEAM B now gets to keep Brees for a 14th round pick, which could throw the competetive balance off entirely.

 

I think team auction values or draft slots should stick with the player for the full season. This is much more prevelent in auction leagues, where guys will have to dump salary. If a guy decides that a hurt player costs way too much and he won't be able to keep him the next season, a different owner shouldn't be able to pick him right up and keep him for a quarter of that price.

 

That's what a "can't cut" list is for. There is no valid, fair, or honest reason why anyone would drop one of the highest performing QBs.(Brees example)

 

Unless you have some means of tagging the players keeper cost on the WW system, it seems pretty clear that any Owner picking up a player from the waiver wire would believe that they are picking up a Waiver Wire Player that would cost them a 14th round pick.

 

As this is a new system kicks will need to be worked out. No biggie.

 

You should also state in the updated rules that two WW players cost you a 13th and 14th. Also decide what to do with trades. Keeper value should probably transfer in trades but you need to create a rule one way or another.

 

if keeper value transfers then you need to decide what to do about a team keeping two players with the same keeper value.

You lose the keeper value of the players +1 round higher or you keep the keeper value of the players -1 round.

 

This stuff happens. Have fun. An make sure you get feedback from the league no one likes a commish that just makes up new rules on the fly.

 

This is a learning opportunity to your noobie keeper owners. Dropping Palmer in a 2 person keeper league is pretty stupid. The guy still has trade value. Either stash him on your bench or trade him to a team that is having a bad year. Its not a redraft so dropping a player like Palmer doesn't make any sense.

Edited by RuffBuff
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think team auction values or draft slots should stick with the player for the full season. This is much more prevelent in auction leagues, where guys will have to dump salary. If a guy decides that a hurt player costs way too much and he won't be able to keep him the next season, a different owner shouldn't be able to pick him right up and keep him for a quarter of that price.

 

Disagree completely about the auction league aspect. That is the point of an auction league. If someone cuts a guy, you get the chance to get him at current market value. And if it is a keeper auction league, that gets taken into consideration in the bidding.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I note with interest some of the responses of my esteemed colleagues.

 

My additional $.02 -

 

What are rules? Essentially rules are an agreement between owners as to the conduct of the league. The best evidence of any agreement is a writing. A clear and unambiguous writing must be interpreted as written. It is only when the writing is ambiguous do you look outside the writing for other evidence to aid in its interpretation. To be fair and consistent, it has to be that way.

 

If you have a clear and unambiguous rule in your FF league that completely covers a situation, you need to apply the rule as written. You write the rules for many reasons, but if you don't enforce them as written, you really don't have any rules, do you? They are more like "guidelines" or "advisory comments." You want to avoid having to interpret rules wherever possible because rule interpretations are an invitation for discontent and complaints of favortism and all sorts of other problems, even if you put the issue to a vote.

 

So maybe you think that the rule isn't fair. And maybe you think that there is a better rule out there. And maybe you think that it makes more sense to do it another way. And maybe you can conceive of a scenario in which the rule might not make sense as written. All of these things aren't relevent with respect to an anaylsis of a clear and unambiguous rule.

 

I don't think there is any wiggle room in this one. If the OP decides anything to do anything other than treat Palmer as an 8th round draft pick, he is making up a new rule. While that is certainly his perogative, its not something that I woud tolerate as an owner.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

:D

 

A BeachBum sighting!!!

 

What's up, GB?

 

You know I still get confused when I see people refering to BB, and then realize it's not me! :wacko:

 

Hey, it's getting close to season, gotta start practicing typing some WDIS answers!

 

BB :D

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I note with interest some of the responses of my esteemed colleagues.

 

My additional $.02 -

 

What are rules? Essentially rules are an agreement between owners as to the conduct of the league. The best evidence of any agreement is a writing. A clear and unambiguous writing must be interpreted as written. It is only when the writing is ambiguous do you look outside the writing for other evidence to aid in its interpretation. To be fair and consistent, it has to be that way.

 

If you have a clear and unambiguous rule in your FF league that completely covers a situation, you need to apply the rule as written. You write the rules for many reasons, but if you don't enforce them as written, you really don't have any rules, do you? They are more like "guidelines" or "advisory comments." You want to avoid having to interpret rules wherever possible because rule interpretations are an invitation for discontent and complaints of favortism and all sorts of other problems, even if you put the issue to a vote.

 

So maybe you think that the rule isn't fair. And maybe you think that there is a better rule out there. And maybe you think that it makes more sense to do it another way. And maybe you can conceive of a scenario in which the rule might not make sense as written. All of these things aren't relevent with respect to an anaylsis of a clear and unambiguous rule.

 

I don't think there is any wiggle room in this one. If the OP decides anything to do anything other than treat Palmer as an 8th round draft pick, he is making up a new rule. While that is certainly his perogative, its not something that I woud tolerate as an owner.

 

You're missing where the ambiguity is in this situation. They have two rules that conflict themselves

 

They have a rule that allows an owner to keep a player from the Waiver Wire costing them a 14th pick. They also have a rule that states that a player kept costs the round drafted plus one.

 

Carson Palmer was drafted and he was picked up from the Waiver Wire.

 

You can't choose to enforce one rule arbitrarily over another rule.

 

The owners in this league need to make a decision. This is a situation that their rules do not cover. Their rules do not cover when a player is drafted and picked up from a Waiver Wire in the same season.

Edited by RuffBuff
Link to comment
Share on other sites

The easy rule for this is:

 

You cannot keep a guy you did not originally draft.

 

This might be a good one year solution until you can decide upon a free agent value in the offseason. I'd roll with this until next year.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Your rules say:

• you can keep as many as you want

• you can't keep 1st or 2nd round picks

• if you keep a player, he costs you one draft pick higher than he was drafted (3rd rounder costs you a 2nd)

 

So, how would you be handling this if a player drafted in the first 2 rounds were dropped by the team that drafted him and then picked up by another team?

 

Based on rule 2; I see 2 things about your rules that need mentioned.

 

1 - Rule 1 is invalid, you can not keep as many players as you like since you already can not keep players drafted in rounds 1 or 2. If you have 14 players on your roster Rule 1 should be written as follows;

 

You can keep as many players as you like, up to 12.

 

2 - Rule 2 states simply that you can not keep 1st or 2nd round picks. As written this rule can only be interpreted to mean, (in a 10 team league for example) that the first 20 players selected in the draft are not eligible to be kept. It does not say, you can't keep 1st or 2nd round picks unless they are dropped and subsequently picked up by another team.

 

So that means 1st & 2nd rd players retain their draft positions even if dropped, therefore all players should.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Your rules say:

• you can keep as many as you want

• you can't keep 1st or 2nd round picks

• if you keep a player, he costs you one draft pick higher than he was drafted (3rd rounder costs you a 2nd)

 

So, how would you be handling this if a player drafted in the first 2 rounds were dropped by the team that drafted him and then picked up by another team?

 

Based on rule 2; I see 2 things about your rules that need mentioned.

 

1 - Rule 1 is invalid, you can not keep as many players as you like since you already can not keep players drafted in rounds 1 or 2. If you have 14 players on your roster Rule 1 should be written as follows;

 

You can keep as many players as you like, up to 12.

 

2 - Rule 2 states simply that you can not keep 1st or 2nd round picks. As written this rule can only be interpreted to mean, (in a 10 team league for example) that the first 20 players selected in the draft are not eligible to be kept. It does not say, you can't keep 1st or 2nd round picks unless they are dropped and subsequently picked up by another team.

 

So that means 1st & 2nd rd players retain their draft positions even if dropped, therefore all players should.

 

You're missing a rule

 

• A player picked up from the WW will cost a 14th round pick.

 

You can't choose to enforce one rule arbitrarily over another rule.

 

The owners in this league need to make a decision. This is a situation that their rules do not cover. Their rules do not cover when a player is drafted and picked up from a Waiver Wire in the same season.

Edited by RuffBuff
Link to comment
Share on other sites

You're missing where the ambiguity is in this situation. They have two rules that conflict themselves

 

They have a rule that allows an owner to keep a player from the Waiver Wire costing them a 14th pick. They also have a rule that states that a player kept costs the round drafted plus one.

 

Maybe you need to re-read. There is no rule on waiver-wire pick-ups. The only rule in place is for those players which were drafted (which Palmer was).

 

The waiver wire/14th round soultion was offered by some other posters, but is not in their rules as they exist today. .

Link to comment
Share on other sites

You're missing where the ambiguity is in this situation. They have two rules that conflict themselves

 

They have a rule that allows an owner to keep a player from the Waiver Wire costing them a 14th pick. They also have a rule that states that a player kept costs the round drafted plus one.

 

I don't think that I missing anything. As I read the original post, there is no rule about keeping a player selected off of the ww, and one of the owners is arguing that the price for keeping a drafted player obtained off of the ww should a 14th round pick.

 

This issue as framed by the OP is should a drafted player be treated as an undrafted player for purposes of a keeper because he was later obtained off of the ww.

 

If that is the case, there is no conflict or ambiguity.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

 Share

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information