Ursa Majoris Posted April 29, 2012 Share Posted April 29, 2012 At least you have the Packers!! And a state that understands that without them it would be just another backward backwater a la Arkansas. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big John Posted April 29, 2012 Share Posted April 29, 2012 And a state that understands that without them it would be just another backward backwater a la Arkansas. Including the colleges? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
borge007 Posted April 29, 2012 Share Posted April 29, 2012 And a state that understands that without them it would be just another backward backwater a la Arkansas. Isn't that the truth. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ursa Majoris Posted April 29, 2012 Share Posted April 29, 2012 Including the colleges? All states have colleges. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darin3 Posted April 29, 2012 Share Posted April 29, 2012 I do not know of any Houston Oiler fans that became Titan fans ... I do. Not many, but they're out there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gbpfan1231 Posted April 30, 2012 Share Posted April 30, 2012 And a state that understands that without them it would be just another backward backwater a la Arkansas. True dat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ursa Majoris Posted May 1, 2012 Share Posted May 1, 2012 True dat. Minnesota will be too. We'll be Nebraska, only colder. It's beyond ridiculous that the 16th biggest metro area in the country, with the nearest other NFL team nearly 300 miles away and the nearest bigger city well over 400 miles away, is in danger of losing it's NFL franchise. People here are just f'n stupid - if they simply tacked half a cent on sales tax state wide, it'd cost the equivalent of couch change or less than most people have in their car armrest. No-one has noticed the 0.375 cents sales tax that paid for the Twins stadium in just one county. It amounts to an extra $3.75 on a $1,000 purchase. Ridiculous how we make such an enormous fuss over a few pennies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevegrab Posted May 1, 2012 Share Posted May 1, 2012 Minnesota will be too. We'll be Nebraska, only colder. It's beyond ridiculous that the 16th biggest metro area in the country, with the nearest other NFL team nearly 300 miles away and the nearest bigger city well over 400 miles away, is in danger of losing it's NFL franchise. People here are just f'n stupid - if they simply tacked half a cent on sales tax state wide, it'd cost the equivalent of couch change or less than most people have in their car armrest. No-one has noticed the 0.375 cents sales tax that paid for the Twins stadium in just one county. It amounts to an extra $3.75 on a $1,000 purchase. Ridiculous how we make such an enormous fuss over a few pennies. That's a good point, but many people who are not sports fans (and there are many of them) don't think the government (city/county/state) should be spending any more money to build new sports facilities every 20-30 years. These teams make insane amounts of money, the owners are billionaires, the players are millionaires, and there are many others involved in the business (coaches, agents, front office) that are paid nicely. So you're going to continue to have these clashes, even in places where the team is universally loved by their fans. There will still be others against paying anything. And if they're going to collect that extra 1/2% of sales tax many will argue why not spend the money on something that helps more people. I was not happy when Cleveland lost the Browns and was glad to get them back. But even here there were people complaining about public money being used to build something that gets used 10 (maybe 15-20 with some concerts) a year. The upkeep and constant renovations to these large facilities is another issue. If there were not other cities willing to provide the incentives, these teams couldn't move. Its like how businesses are courted by differen locations, except in those cases there is a much more real and easily measured impact of jobs and money. PS Is that extra Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ursa Majoris Posted May 1, 2012 Share Posted May 1, 2012 Steve, your post describes very well the problems that people think are going to happen. First, the stadium here currently is used 250 times a year, not 10, nor 20. The new one would be too. The stadium will be publicly owned and operated. We already have spent money on other things e.g. theaters, orchestra halls, bike trails, etc, etc and we will continue to do so because that's what cities have to do to remain alive. It isn't all just football but it can't also be all about education all the time, either, as anti-stadium people always plead for - we need bread AND circuses, not bread OR circuses. And, as many here will tell you, I'm the very last person to sympathize with millionaires and billionaires. My concern is solely with the future of the state of Minnesota and, in particular, this metropolitan area. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gbpfan1231 Posted May 1, 2012 Share Posted May 1, 2012 Steve, your post describes very well the problems that people think are going to happen. First, the stadium here currently is used 250 times a year, not 10, nor 20. The new one would be too. The stadium will be publicly owned and operated. We already have spent money on other things e.g. theaters, orchestra halls, bike trails, etc, etc and we will continue to do so because that's what cities have to do to remain alive. It isn't all just football but it can't also be all about education all the time, either, as anti-stadium people always plead for - we need bread AND circuses, not bread OR circuses. And, as many here will tell you, I'm the very last person to sympathize with millionaires and billionaires. My concern is solely with the future of the state of Minnesota and, in particular, this metropolitan area. Well said Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevegrab Posted May 2, 2012 Share Posted May 2, 2012 Steve, your post describes very well the problems that people think are going to happen. First, the stadium here currently is used 250 times a year, not 10, nor 20. The new one would be too. The stadium will be publicly owned and operated. We already have spent money on other things e.g. theaters, orchestra halls, bike trails, etc, etc and we will continue to do so because that's what cities have to do to remain alive. It isn't all just football but it can't also be all about education all the time, either, as anti-stadium people always plead for - we need bread AND circuses, not bread OR circuses. And, as many here will tell you, I'm the very last person to sympathize with millionaires and billionaires. My concern is solely with the future of the state of Minnesota and, in particular, this metropolitan area. Sorry, totally forgot the current stadium was a dome (new one as well I presume) and therefore it is used much more than your average outdoor 60-80 thousand capacity football stadium. And I do realize your points about diverse activities and spending money on many different things. And I agree, but many average citizens don't. Money spent on parks does (or can) benefit all. Money spent on entertainment venues will only directly benefit those who attend the events (are interested and have the financial means to do so). I don't follow much of what public money is spent on things like theatres, opera, etc., and they're generally not big news items. But when the legislatures started talking about spending 10-100 millions on pro sports facilities many people are paying attention and voicing their displeasure. I really hope the people of MN and the Vikings can work something out. I'd hate to see them lose their team, I know how much that sucks (and it will never be the same see Cleveland Browns part 2). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Savage Beatings Posted May 2, 2012 Author Share Posted May 2, 2012 The level of political incompetancy in Minnesota is unprecendented and on full display for the Nation as the State attempts to tackle this stadium issue. It has gone way beyond ridiculous with all of the broken promises, political leveraging, and last minute gotcha bill addendums. It is clear that the MN Republicans are about 90% to blame for all of this crap. What a complete disaster of a local representative Party. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
borge007 Posted May 2, 2012 Share Posted May 2, 2012 The level of political incompetancy in Minnesota is unprecendented and on full display for the Nation as the State attempts to tackle this stadium issue. It has gone way beyond ridiculous with all of the broken promises, political leveraging, and last minute gotcha bill addendums. It is clear that the MN Republicans are about 90% to blame for all of this crap. What a complete disaster of a local representative Party. Well said-and 100% true. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flemingd Posted May 2, 2012 Share Posted May 2, 2012 Money spent on parks does (or can) benefit all. Money spent on entertainment venues will only directly benefit those who attend the events (are interested and have the financial means to do so). So wrong. Think about how much tax revenue is generated for the state, not to mention how much this spending stimulates the local economy. People come to games from far away, and they get hotel rooms, they buy gas, they buy plane tickets, they go to restaurants, they take taxis, they participate in the local tourism opportunities. They employ how many people to run that stadium? To work the events? To clean it? Not to mention the financial impact of creating 100's or 1000's of jobs for a few years just to build it! The economic stimulation is massive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yukon Cornelius Posted May 2, 2012 Share Posted May 2, 2012 So wrong. Think about how much tax revenue is generated for the state, not to mention how much this spending stimulates the local economy. People come to games from far away, and they get hotel rooms, they buy gas, they buy plane tickets, they go to restaurants, they take taxis, they participate in the local tourism opportunities. They employ how many people to run that stadium? To work the events? To clean it? Not to mention the financial impact of creating 100's or 1000's of jobs for a few years just to build it! The economic stimulation is massive. see the republicans in MN are not about money and or jobs, this is clearly stated in their bylaws. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevegrab Posted May 2, 2012 Share Posted May 2, 2012 So wrong. Think about how much tax revenue is generated for the state, not to mention how much this spending stimulates the local economy. People come to games from far away, and they get hotel rooms, they buy gas, they buy plane tickets, they go to restaurants, they take taxis, they participate in the local tourism opportunities. They employ how many people to run that stadium? To work the events? To clean it? Not to mention the financial impact of creating 100's or 1000's of jobs for a few years just to build it! The economic stimulation is massive. That is true, but the same could be said about spending money to build a casino. Do you think that the public would support their government doing that? Some people in NE Ohio were still upset for years over the sin (tobacco and alcohol) tax that was primarily used to build the new homes of Indians and Cavs. Listen, I personally am not against this, and understand all the benefits from having pro sports teams in your area. But we all need to understand there are just as many (or more) people out there who think it is a complete waste and the money would be better spend on projects that can DIRECTLY benefit more people. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yukon Cornelius Posted May 2, 2012 Share Posted May 2, 2012 Listen, I personally am not against this, and understand all the benefits from having pro sports teams in your area. But we all need to understand there are just as many (or more) people out there who think it is a complete waste and the money would be better spend on projects that can DIRECTLY benefit more people. like bike paths and art museums Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ursa Majoris Posted May 2, 2012 Share Posted May 2, 2012 Money spent on parks does (or can) benefit all. Money spent on entertainment venues will only directly benefit those who attend the events (are interested and have the financial means to do so). I don't follow much of what public money is spent on things like theatres, opera, etc., and they're generally not big news items. But when the legislatures started talking about spending 10-100 millions on pro sports facilities many people are paying attention and voicing their displeasure. Do you think NFL games aren't televised here? The stadium would only serve those actually in it? You sure? While it would be great if all tax money was always equally beneficial to every citizen all the time, it's not. In my own metro, we have the Guthrie Theater, which lots of people enjoy. They spent about $40 million on the thing a couple years back. It has plays by earnest Frenchmen where the actors lay around and play dead as a metaphor for nuclear war and an assortment of other crap that you wouldn't get me to watch if you dragged me in there behind a Caterpillar grader. Nevertheless, I was cool with the money because there clearly are a lot of people who attend the facility. The point is that every single citizen could make the same case - this or that tax spend doesn't benefit me directly. Well, perhaps it doesn't benefit you directly but there are a lot of indirect, longer term benefits to almost everything. Light rail transit I'll never use could reduce future road expenditures. A highway I'll never travel on could keep my taxes down by attracting business. An extension to the convention center I'll never attend could attract more convention goers. And on and on and on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevegrab Posted May 2, 2012 Share Posted May 2, 2012 Uncle, I give. I'm not trying to argue against spending money on a new stadium for the Vikings (doesn't really matter to me since I don't live or visit there and pay taxes). Just that I understand how a large portion of the population may not be in favor of that, which influences what politicians will agree to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boltnlava Posted May 2, 2012 Share Posted May 2, 2012 Uncle, I give. I'm not trying to argue against spending money on a new stadium for the Vikings (doesn't really matter to me since I don't live or visit there and pay taxes). Just that I understand how a large portion of the population may not be in favor of that, which influences what politicians will agree to. Steve your point is well taken and probably reflected best in San Diego. I know what you are trying to get across and the same situation is occurring right now in SD. As many people that want to pay for a stadium for the Chargers there are that many who don't. Most of those who don't just feel that Spanos and Co. can afford to foot the bill in his own money making enterprise. Gifting 100's of millions in dollars to a billionaire is not what they feel is in the best interests of a San Diego city that has multiple problems that that money should go to. I am in favor of the stadium but I have to acknowledge that they have a right to be heard. This has been going on in our city for 12+ years now. I get more worried each year that goes by. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Outshined Posted May 2, 2012 Share Posted May 2, 2012 (edited) So wrong. Think about how much tax revenue is generated for the state, not to mention how much this spending stimulates the local economy. People come to games from far away, and they get hotel rooms, they buy gas, they buy plane tickets, they go to restaurants, they take taxis, they participate in the local tourism opportunities. They employ how many people to run that stadium? To work the events? To clean it? Not to mention the financial impact of creating 100's or 1000's of jobs for a few years just to build it! The economic stimulation is massive. 14,000 jobs and an estimated $400,000,000 of the cost of the stadium is labor cost. Edited May 2, 2012 by Outshined Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azazello1313 Posted May 2, 2012 Share Posted May 2, 2012 The level of political incompetancy in Minnesota is unprecendented well, hard to say it's unprecedented, really. I mean, this IS the state that elected Stuart Smalley and Jesse the Body-man to high office (among many other professional clowns). seems more "par for the course" than unprecedented. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaP'N GRuNGe Posted May 2, 2012 Share Posted May 2, 2012 well, hard to say it's unprecedented, really. I mean, this IS the state that elected Stuart Smalley and Jesse the Body-man to high office (among many other professional clowns). seems more "par for the course" than unprecedented. You forgot Michelle Bachmann. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Savage Beatings Posted May 2, 2012 Author Share Posted May 2, 2012 well, hard to say it's unprecedented, really. I mean, this IS the state that elected Stuart Smalley and Jesse the Body-man to high office (among many other professional clowns). seems more "par for the course" than unprecedented. Point taken, but those were elections showing the stupidity of the citizens of MN. This is a display of the incompetence of the State legislators (which most people are not familiar with). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
borge007 Posted May 2, 2012 Share Posted May 2, 2012 You forgot Michelle Bachmann. I wish we could! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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