Goodbye Minnesota Vikings

[Jolly Rodgers]

This has been going on in our city for 12+ years now. I get more worried each year that goes by.

 

 

I'd start to get real worried if the Vikings stay in Minn. The Chargers are next on the "moving to LA" list.

[Ditkaless Wonders]

So wrong. Think about how much tax revenue is generated for the state, not to mention how much this spending stimulates the local economy. People come to games from far away, and they get hotel rooms, they buy gas, they buy plane tickets, they go to restaurants, they take taxis, they participate in the local tourism opportunities. They employ how many people to run that stadium? To work the events? To clean it? Not to mention the financial impact of creating 100's or 1000's of jobs for a few years just to build it! The economic stimulation is massive.

 

 

The economic stimulation may be massive, but is mostly temoprary and inures to the benefit of a few at the expense of the many.

 

I ask you, would not construction jobs be created in an equal amount if they built schools, repaired roadways, improved parks, and rebuilt bridges? And would not some of those attract tourists and create jobs, even better jobs than hot dog vendor? And wouldn't improved infrastructure and schools be a selling point in attracting both new and relocating industry which would create jobs and strengthen the tax base?

 

I always find the economic stimulus argument interesting because it is offered in a vacuum rather than in comparison to other stimulus which may well be even more beneficial long term. Also the one is more central to the role of government, while this, this is so far out in the penumbra of powers that it is about to escape orbit. Anyhow, please understand that I am no economist, I admit my ignorance on the issue, and I am truly asking the questions rather than using questions to assert a position. What I know though, aving viewed this passion play several times now, is that the comparative analysis is never made. The one point is just made up justification for what some intend to do simply out of fandom, not some concern for good governance.

Edited May 3, 2012 by Ditkaless Wonders

[flemingd]

I ask you, would not construction jobs be created in an equal amount fn they built schoosl, repaired roadways, improved parks, and rebuilt bridges?

Perhaps, but that assumes the lawmakers would be pulling together an extra $400 million tax to fund them - which of course they aren't.

 

Wilf was also kicking in $250 million (up to $427, I'm not tracking all of the different proposals' details) of his own money at one time - not sure if that's part of this particular proposal - so you would need to find philanthropists willing to cough up that kind of dough to a metro parks fund for the same bang for the buck.

 

The economic stimulation may be massive, but is mostly temoprary and inures to the benefit of a few at the expense of the many.

 

And would not some of those attract tourists and create jobs, even better jobs than hot dog vendor? And wouldn't improved infrastructure and schools be a selling point in attracting new and relocating industry which would create jobs and strengthen the tax base?

I don't know the last time a dad grabbed his 12 year old son, hopped in the family wagon, and drove 700 miles with the intent to take his son to his first crick-crossing on the spiffy new bridge over Crawdad Point, fully prepared to drop $500 on memorabilia, a few $9 beers, and a t-shirt that says "I could have gone to a Vikings game but all I got was this stupid shirt and a well-paved road."

 

You're not going to have the NCAA Regional tournament in a new park. A new museum wing won't host political conventions, corporate retreats, flea markets, collectible trading card conventions, wholesale clearinghouse sales, WWF Wrestlemania, monster truck shows, and whatever else 20,000 people gather for at any one time. The Big Ten had a Championship game for football for the first time this year - it was held in Lucas Oil Stadium in Indy but there's no contractual agreement making that permanent.

 

Sorry for the sarcasm, not insulting ya, I just have fun with it sometimes.

 

This needs to be looked at as an investment, not an expense. IIRC you are a Packers fan, no? How dead does is that town if the Packers leave? During the lockout preparation last year, was there any discussion about the economic impact a year without football would mean to that town? Canceling the HOF game cost Canton $31 million just from the lost game. Preseason game. $31 million dollars.

[Ditkaless Wonders]

Perhaps, but that assumes the lawmakers would be pulling together an extra $400 million tax to fund them - which of course they aren't.

 

Wilf was also kicking in $250 million (up to $427, I'm not tracking all of the different proposals' details) of his own money at one time - not sure if that's part of this particular proposal - so you would need to find philanthropists willing to cough up that kind of dough to a metro parks fund for the same bang for the buck.

 

 

I don't know the last time a dad grabbed his 12 year old son, hopped in the family wagon, and drove 700 miles with the intent to take his son to his first crick-crossing on the spiffy new bridge over Crawdad Point, fully prepared to drop $500 on memorabilia, a few $9 beers, and a t-shirt that says "I could have gone to a Vikings game but all I got was this stupid shirt and a well-paved road."

 

You're not going to have the NCAA Regional tournament in a new park. A new museum wing won't host political conventions, corporate retreats, flea markets, collectible trading card conventions, wholesale clearinghouse sales, WWF Wrestlemania, monster truck shows, and whatever else 20,000 people gather for at any one time. The Big Ten had a Championship game for football for the first time this year - it was held in Lucas Oil Stadium in Indy but there's no contractual agreement making that permanent.

 

Sorry for the sarcasm, not insulting ya, I just have fun with it sometimes.

 

This needs to be looked at as an investment, not an expense. IIRC you are a Packers fan, no? How dead does is that town if the Packers leave? During the lockout preparation last year, was there any discussion about the economic impact a year without football would mean to that town? Canceling the HOF game cost Canton $31 million just from the lost game. Preseason game. $31 million dollars.

 

 

Fair enough arguments but they don't really compare the bang for the buck since this is never done, nor does it address the proper role of government.

 

Perhaps we could also ask what the effect is on a town's economy when a major arterial bridge collapses into a river, severing towns, costing lives, and stopping barge traffic? What is the cost in commuter time until fixed? How about lost business recruitment opportunity? What is that bad publicity worth? Is a stadium a crazy luxury and not really the business of government? Whose business is infrastructure, education, public safety, preservation or renovation of parks and open space?

 

As for some of the things you mentioned could they only be hosted at the proposed new stadium or might many of them find homes at the other stadiums and arenas in the area?

 

As for the Packers leaving, well that is not really going to happen given their structure.

Edited May 3, 2012 by Ditkaless Wonders

[Bronco Billy]

I can't help but to revert back to the same argument as is made in many similar situations. If the capital recovery is solid, investors would want no part of government involvement. That taxpayers are being asked to help pay a substial portion of the cost tells any rational person that the project is noteconomically feasible. And if businesses in the immediate area of the ballpark are positively impacted to a substantial degree, they ought to be crawling over one another for the opportunity to invest in the stadium. If the capital benefit is so easily shown, investors and banks would be lining up in droves to get involved.

 

If you want correct answers, follow the money. If taxpayers have to fund a large portion of a project, the reality is that the project is a capital loser, not a capital winner.

[Savage Beatings]

If you want correct answers, follow the money. If taxpayers have to fund a large portion of a project, the reality is that the project is a capital loser, not a capital winner.

 

 

Sure, but Minnesota has spent a ton of money on a Light Rail system that was always known to be a capital loser right from the beginning. So, clearly whether something is a capital winner or loser is not the only criteria to be considered for a major project like this. I hate the idea of spending tax dollars for a private business subsidy like this (although there are MANY alternatives to using tax dollars to fund this) but I just happen to hate the idea of losing the Vikings more. I shared my love for this team with my Father and my friends, and I want to continue to be able to share that passion with my son now. If they take that priceless experience away from me, I will be furious.

[Savage Beatings]

I just listened to an interview on KFAN with Minnesota Speaker Zellers ® and this guy is a total POS. He was obviously lying when asked if the Republicans were holding this bill hostage in order to get the Dems to cave on other issues. I am convinced that the Republicans are going to screw this deal. We'll find out for sure probably on Monday.

[Ditkaless Wonders]

Sure, but Minnesota has spent a ton of money on a Light Rail system that was always known to be a capital loser right from the beginning. So, clearly whether something is a capital winner or loser is not the only criteria to be considered for a major project like this. I hate the idea of spending tax dollars for a private business subsidy like this (although there are MANY alternatives to using tax dollars to fund this) but I just happen to hate the idea of losing the Vikings more. I shared my love for this team with my Father and my friends, and I want to continue to be able to share that passion with my son now. If they take that priceless experience away from me, I will be furious.

 

 

I enjoy such refreshing honesty.

[wirehairman]

Perhaps we could also ask what the effect is on a town's economy when a major arterial bridge collapses into a river, severing towns, costing lives, and stopping barge traffic? What is the cost in commuter time until fixed? How about lost business recruitment opportunity? What is that bad publicity worth?

 

This would never actually happen, would it?

 

As for some of the things you mentioned could they only be hosted at the proposed new stadium or might many of them find homes at the other stadiums and arenas in the area?

 

Won't the Metrodome still be there?

 

At the same time, I dropped a bundle in Minneapolis the one Vikings game I actually attended and will be very disappointed if they move to LA, to the point I will likely be looking for a new "home" team.

[Fatman]

For anyone interested in this topic, I'd highly recommend this article. While a bit old (I first read it about 10 years ago in a Land Economics class), it's a great exercise in exploring the value of building stadiums with public funds. Briefly:

 

 

 

"...independent work on the economic impact of stadiums and arenas has

 

 

 

uniformly found that there is no statistically significant positive correlation between

 

 

sports facility construction and economic development."

 

 

Some other really interesting stuff in here around revenue sharing between players and owners, the role of Personal Seat Licenses squeezing out the average fan, and the badge value of being a "big city". Worth a read.

Edited May 3, 2012 by Fatman

[Bronco Billy]

Mass transit is a perfect example. If any meaninful net capital could be wrung out of it, private enterprise would run it. Because it is generally a massive money pit, the only way it can run is by government fiat. And of course that means all taxpayers generally contribute to the funding whether they use it or not. Such is the price of participating in society.

[CaP'N GRuNGe]

Those who don't use mass transit get some benefit by less traffic on the streets, though i bet that benefit is pretty small.

[stevegrab]

Those who don't use mass transit get some benefit by less traffic on the streets, though i bet that benefit is pretty small.

 

 

That's a good point. Although most who use mass transit do so because they do not or can not have a personal vehicle.

 

I've heard people complaining where I live when money is spent on mass transit, because they don't use it and see it as a waste. Same as non sports fans complain about stadiums, and people who never go to a park with park improvements. The point is, the $ figures spent on a sports venue are usually very high compared to these others, or have much more press coverage which get's people's attention.

[Savage Beatings]

Today Governor Dayton vetoed the Republican Tax Relief bill. That was the bill that Republican Speaker Zellers said he wanted the Governor to support in order to get more Republican cooperation on the Stadium bill.

[MikesVikes]

One thing that I'm not sure that has been pointed out is that this won't be Zygi's stadium. We're not building him a stadium. It is a public stadium of which the Vikes will use 10 to 12 times a year and that the remaining time can be used for whoever else. Zygi doesn't profit from the use of the stadium on any of those 353 to 355 other days that it used.

[Outshined]

Like last year, I dont see much anything getting accomplished. Our democratic governor is vetoing every one of the republican led legislatures top priority bills, yet he wants them to approve his top priority: the stadium bill.

[MikesVikes]

Today Governor Dayton vetoed the Republican Tax Relief bill. That was the bill that Republican Speaker Zellers said he wanted the Governor to support in order to get more Republican cooperation on the Stadium bill.

 

 

In ten years from now we won't remember that stupid tax relief bill, but I will remember who was responsible for the team leaving.

[alexgaddis]

wow...I truly don't see any way this passes on Monday...the question then becomes what 11th hour savior tries to come forward to save the team from leaving?

[Outshined]

wow...I truly don't see any way this passes on Monday...the question then becomes what 11th hour savior tries to come forward to save the team from leaving?

 

 

Glen Taylor

Edited May 4, 2012 by Outshined

[kcmast]

Like last year, I dont see much anything getting accomplished. Our democratic governor is vetoing every one of the republican led legislatures top priority bills, yet he wants them to approve his top priority: the stadium bill.

 

Both sides are playing games with this and they'll both point at each other as the moving trucks drive away.

[Yukon Cornelius]

Both sides are playing games with this and they'll both point at each other as the moving trucks drive away.

 

wurd

[Chief Dick]

Man, I hate politics.

[jetsfan]

That's a good point. Although most who use mass transit do so because they do not or can not have a personal vehicle.

 

 

In NYC, Boston or DC, the metro is the only way to get around.

I always take the train when I am in downtown Houston because traffic and parking both suck. They gouge you 30/day to park depending on what building you are going to and all the streets are one-way and under construction.

[SeductiveNun]

Both sides are playing games with this and they'll both point at each other as the moving trucks drive away.

 

Just as long as we can have them do that while standing in front of the moving trucks as they drive away.

[stevegrab]

In NYC, Boston or DC, the metro is the only way to get around.

I always take the train when I am in downtown Houston because traffic and parking both suck. They gouge you 30/day to park depending on what building you are going to and all the streets are one-way and under construction.

 

 

Yep, but those three are the few ones in the US. (In Europe and other parts of the world many people use mass transit, and it doesn't have that "only for the poor" stigma).

 

When I was in college living in Cleveland I took mass transit (the train into downtown, then the bus or walk a couple miles to the university). I (and my family) was glad it was there because we didn't have the money for another car.

 

In LA, if you don't have your own car and drive a hundred miles a day (commute, errands) you are in the minority. Although even there, mass transit is much more widely used than some other cities.