Alright, I've had it with guns already!

[irish]

https://abcnews.go.com/US/texas-elementary-school-reports-active-shooter-campus/story?id=84940951

 

Everyday, it seems like another issue with gun violence. I know some will say guns don't kill people, people do using the weapon. I get it but something needs to be done about guns and now!

[darin3]

I honestly don't think there is a solution.  We are just far too polarized of a country to ever come to a common ground on an issue such as gun control.  Unfortunately these events are going to just happen every so often.  We can say "thoughts and prayers" over and over, but until something major clicks, these tragedies are just going to happen again and again.  And there is little chance of anything major being done about it. Welcome to America.

[darin3]

And God bless those souls that were taken from their loved ones way, wayyy too early. 

[irish]

Just now, darin3 said:

I honestly don't think there is a solution.  We are just far too polarized of a country to ever come to a common ground on an issue such as gun control.  Unfortunately these events are going to just happen every so often.  We can say "thoughts and prayers" over and over, but until something major clicks, these tragedies are just going to happen again and again.  And there is little chance of anything major being done about it. Welcome to America.

 

Very true!  There is just way too much hatred and divisiveness. 

[irish]

https://www.texastribune.org/2022/05/24/uvalde-texas-school-shooting/

 

21 confirmed dead now. 

[darin3]

1 minute ago, irish said:

 

Very true!  There is just way too much hatred and divisiveness. 

 

I don't know about the hatred.  Yes, it exists in some, but even absent true "hate", there is enough divisiveness to keep us so separated in terms of "right vs. left".  Enough polarization to keep us from ever settling in the middle.  It'll never happen.

[rajncajn]

16 minutes ago, irish said:

https://abcnews.go.com/US/texas-elementary-school-reports-active-shooter-campus/story?id=84940951

 

Everyday, it seems like another issue with gun violence. I know some will say guns don't kill people, people do using the weapon. I get it but something needs to be done about guns and now!

Short of a complete ban, which will never happen, what do you think can be done about guns that will stop this from happening? Gun laws keep getting passed and it only gets worse.  I'm not trying to argue here for or against guns, but I think that this country seriously needs to take a more serious look at things other than just guns every time something like this occurs. Because it really has gotten us absolutely nowhere and only turns into some stupid political battle.

[irish]

18 minutes ago, rajncajn said:

Short of a complete ban, which will never happen, what do you think can be done about guns that will stop this from happening? Gun laws keep getting passed and it only gets worse.  I'm not trying to argue here for or against guns, but I think that this country seriously needs to take a more serious look at things other than just guns every time something like this occurs. Because it really has gotten us absolutely nowhere and only turns into some stupid political battle.

 

Completely agreed.  I'm personally not in favor of guns but I'm much more concerned with all the mental health issues which put people in position to want to hurt others, at times, using guns. 

[League_Champion]

Horrible tragedy, I can't even imagine being one of those parents. Don't blame the gun, it doesn't load and pull the trigger itself. I'm not sure where or how this little a-hole got a gun but that's where the conversation needs to start. Blaming the gun is another easy way out. 

[irish]

https://theweek.com/school-shootings/1013846/firearms-are-now-the-leading-cause-of-death-for-us-children

[irish]

https://messaging-custom-newsletters.nytimes.com/template/oakv2?campaign_id=9&emc=edit_nn_20220525&instance_id=62320&nl=the-morning&productCode=NN®i_id=149246767&segment_id=93286&te=1&uri=nyt%3A%2F%2Fnewsletter%2Faf5d713c-2a85-5123-af56-465e1be18b2f&user_id=5388dc7cd5096e52d60f540afbaaa8c1

 

Good morning. Gun violence has killed more children and destroyed another community.

 

 

Dozens, every day

 

Nineteen children were murdered in Uvalde, Texas, yesterday. They were elementary school students, attending their last week of classes before summer vacation, when an 18-year-old gunman came through the door and began shooting.

 

He also killed two adults, including a teacher, and appears to have shot his grandmother in her home before going to the school. At least three kids are in critical condition.

 

By now, the story of American gun violence is unsurprising. Mass shootings happen frequently. The list from just the past decade includes supermarkets in Buffalo and in Boulder, Colo.; a rail yard in San Jose, Calif.; a birthday party in Colorado Springs; a convenience store in Springfield, Mo.; a synagogue in Pittsburgh; churches in Sutherland Springs, Texas, and in Charleston, S.C.; a Walmart in El Paso; a FedEx warehouse in Indianapolis; a music festival in Las Vegas; massage parlors in the Atlanta area; a Waffle House in Nashville; a gay nightclub in Orlando, Fla.; and a movie theater in Aurora, Colo.

 

Even school shootings happen often enough that we know some of the names: Sandy Hook Elementary School, Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School, Oxford High School, Santa Fe High School, Columbine High School. Robb Elementary School in Uvalde has joined this horrific list.

 

If American gun violence is no longer surprising, it still is shocking. On an average day in the U.S., more than 35 people are murdered with a gun. No other affluent country in the world has a gun homicide rate nearly as high. Consider this chart, by my colleague Ashley Wu:

 

Chart shows select countries with a G.D.P. per capita of at least $30,000. | Sources: Our World in Data; World Bank

As bad as it is, the chart underplays the toll, for two reasons. It covers 2019, and gun violence has surged since the pandemic, for a complex mix of reasons that German Lopez has explained. The chart also does not include suicides and accidental shootings. Altogether, guns killed about 45,000 Americans last year.

 

“Nowhere else do little kids go to school thinking that they might be shot that day,” Senator Chris Murphy of Connecticut said in a speech last night.

 

Why is the U.S. such an outlier? The main reasons, studies suggest, are the sheer number of guns in this country and the loose laws about obtaining and using them.

 

No doubt, this latest tragedy will lead to more debate about whether those laws should meaningfully change. After other recent shootings, the country’s answer was no.

 

More on the shooting

 

“I am sick and tired of it,” President Biden said. “We have to act. And don’t tell me we can’t have an impact on this carnage.”

Senate Democrats pushed for a vote on legislation that would strengthen background checks, which the House first passed in 2019.

The Uvalde massacre is the second-deadliest school shooting on record, behind Sandy Hook a decade ago.

Eva Mireles, a fourth-grade teacher, was killed while trying to protect her students, according to a relative.

Anguished families waited late into the night to find out whether their children were among those killed.

The authorities identified the gunman as Salvador Ramos, who had attended a nearby high school. He died at the scene.

“I guess it’s something in society we know will happen again, over and over.” Parents of the Sandy Hook victims grappled with another shooting.

Texas has some of the country’s least-restrictive gun laws: Nearly anyone over 21 can carry a handgun without a license.

“I’m tired of the moments of silence. Enough.” Steve Kerr, coach of the Golden State Warriors, made an emotional plea for gun control measures.

 

Opinions

 

Our former colleague Nicholas Kristof has explained what policy changes can reduce mass shootings. https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2017/11/06/opinion/how-to-reduce-shootings.html?te=1&nl=the-morning&emc=edit_nn_20220525

 

Pass and enforce red-flag laws now, David French of The Dispatch writes. https://frenchpress.thedispatch.com/p/pass-and-enforce-red-flag-laws-now?s=r&te=1&nl=the-morning&emc=edit_nn_20220525

 

[irish]

https://www.thedailybeast.com/robb-elementary-school-fourth-grader-amerie-jo-garza-was-shot-as-she-called-911-grandmother-says

[League_Champion]

29 minutes ago, irish said:

https://theweek.com/school-shootings/1013846/firearms-are-now-the-leading-cause-of-death-for-us-children

 

Guns are not the the cause. The cause is loading the gun, pointing it and pulling the trigger. The gun doesn't kill, the person pulling the trigger does. If someone is stabbed to death is it the knifes fault? If a car plows into a group of protesters is it the cars fault? No, that would be absurd right? 

 

Let's look into why and how these guns are acquired. I'm all for stricter gun laws, firearm training, range certification, etc. The problem is that guns are getting into the wrong hands. Have you seen what's happening in Chicago, LA, etc? It's literally the Wild West. I doubt those guns were legally obtained, that's a problem. My guns don't break out of the safe, walk into a school and start killing people on their own. Hold the killer accountable. 

 

I'm all for stricter gun laws across the board. It's time. 

 

 

 

Edited May 25, 2022 by League_Champion

[stevegrab]

From one of Irish

2 hours ago, irish said:

https://messaging-custom-newsletters.nytimes.com/template/oakv2?campaign_id=9&emc=edit_nn_20220525&instance_id=62320&nl=the-morning&productCode=NN®i_id=149246767&segment_id=93286&te=1&uri=nyt%3A%2F%2Fnewsletter%2Faf5d713c-2a85-5123-af56-465e1be18b2f&user_id=5388dc7cd5096e52d60f540afbaaa8c1

 

Good morning. Gun violence has killed more children and destroyed another community.

 

 

BULK OF CONTENT REMOVED ....

 

From the text in Irish post

"Why is the U.S. such an outlier? The main reasons, studies suggest, are the sheer number of guns in this country and the loose laws about obtaining and using them."

 

This part is like a no brainer for some of us, but to others (including some who post here) it is likely to be dismissed as not really a factor at all.

 

Somebody asked "where did he get the gun", he was 18 isn't that old enough to buy a gun? From a little digging I see that its 21 if being sold by a licensed dealer, but 18 from anybody else, and no age limit on private sales of rifles. So it sounds like it would be pretty easy for this kid to get the guns he used. 18 old enough to buy a gun and use it to kill, but not old enough to drink. 

 

What about body armor like some of these people are wearing now when they start their deadly attack?  Why should the public be permitted to have that kind of stuff? Some things should be limited to military and law enforcement. Or maybe we need tanks and howitzers to protect ourselves. 

 

Steve Kerr spent his pre-game press conference talking about the shooting and the need to do something. The links below cover that and the gun bill he is calling on our US Congress to pass. 

 

https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/33979219/warriors-steve-kerr-delivers-impassioned-plea-gun-control-texas-school-shooting-get-numb-this

 

https://thehill.com/news/senate/3500893-heres-the-gun-control-bill-steve-kerr-called-on-senate-to-pass/

[irish]

With Tuesday's murder of at least 19 children and two adults at Robb Elementary School in Uvalde, Texas, more kids have been shot dead at school this year than police officers have been killed by guns — 24 children versus 20 cops

 

Wow!

[rajncajn]

5 hours ago, LordOpie said:

I agree with a lot of what you say but not this.

People who kill with guns are criminals. Criminals don't follow the laws. Stricter laws don't affect criminals.

How would stricter laws help stop people who don't follow the law?

This kid wasn't a criminal until he was. The question should not be whether or not criminals will follow laws, but rather are there laws that will help prevent would-be criminals easy access to guns.

 

I think there's compromise that's going to have to happen on all fronts. I think mental health is a massive issue in our young children that literally nobody is really addressing. I think access to content not suitable is too easily available for young children and it's only getting worse.  I think that too many people,  parents and politicians want to treat our children like they are adults,  think like adults,  act and react like adults. I think that our political and social rhetoric is incredibly too influential in our young,  developing minds.  I think that schools will have to break down and take security much more seriously. More resource officers who are actual officers that are dedicated to security and not just glorified crossing guards with a plastic badge and a walkie-talkie. 

 

There's much, much more to this issue than just guns and what I just posted and every issue that everyone believes IMO is valid and should be taken seriously if we're ever going to change anything.

Edited May 25, 2022 by rajncajn

[gilthorp]

19 minutes ago, rajncajn said:

 

There's much, much more to this issue than just guns

 

Agree. 100%.

 

But please stop putting it all together. Isolate ONE issue and try to fix it. Take THE GUN issue and do something. Anything. Try something and trial by error it. Anything at all....some action, move it a f'n inch. 

 

There is no reason in this world why a person can purchase one, or two assault rifles and just have them the day of or even within a week. If someone wants it, make them wait a very long time. Try that. 

 

The hypocrisy of the gun lobby (this is not aimed at anyone here) and the Republicans who are bought and paid for disgusts me to no end. Pro life my ass.

 

Tackle bullying separately.

Address mental health and do something.

 

But, please stop wrapping it all together when the ease in which these types of weapons are so easily accessible is an issue in of itself and can be isolated as a fundamental reason these tragic events occur.

 

 

[rajncajn]

43 minutes ago, gilthorp said:

 

Agree. 100%.

 

But please stop putting it all together. Isolate ONE issue and try to fix it. Take THE GUN issue and do something. Anything. Try something and trial by error it. Anything at all....some action, move it a f'n inch. 

 

There is no reason in this world why a person can purchase one, or two assault rifles and just have them the day of or even within a week. If someone wants it, make them wait a very long time. Try that. 

 

The hypocrisy of the gun lobby (this is not aimed at anyone here) and the Republicans who are bought and paid for disgusts me to no end. Pro life my ass.

 

Tackle bullying separately.

Address mental health and do something.

 

But, please stop wrapping it all together when the ease in which these types of weapons are so easily accessible is an issue in of itself and can be isolated as a fundamental reason these tragic events occur.

A few things that I think would help with just the gun issue:

 

-Raising the age limit that one can purchase or possess unsupervised any firearm to 21 unless that person can meet very specific criteria like passing a certification test, outlining necessity and passing a firearm safety course.

 

-All guns sold must come equipped with a proper locking device.

 

-Parents must be held in some more meaningful way responsible for children accessing their guns and committing crimes with them. They also should be held responsible for ignoring warning signs and/or promoting hateful rhetoric or providing an abusive environment that likely helped lead to the act.

[gilthorp]

thIs is not mine...trying to find the source.

 

For years now, after one massacre or another, I have written some version of the same article, explaining that the nation’s current gun free-for-all is not traditional but, rather, is a symptom of the takeover of our nation by a radical extremist minority. The idea that massacres are “the price of freedom,” as right-wing personality Bill O’Reilly said in 2017 after the Mandalay Bay massacre in Las Vegas, in which a gunman killed 60 people and wounded 411 others, is new, and it is about politics, not our history.

The Second Amendment to the Constitution, on which modern-day arguments for widespread gun ownership rest, is one simple sentence: “A well regulated militia, being necessary for the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.” There’s not a lot to go on about what the Framers meant, although in their day, to “bear arms” meant to be part of an organized militia.

As the Tennessee Supreme Court wrote in 1840, “A man in the pursuit of deer, elk, and buffaloes might carry his rifle every day for forty years, and yet it would never be said of him that he had borne arms; much less could it be said that a private citizen bears arms because he has a dirk or pistol concealed under his clothes, or a spear in a cane.”

 

Today’s insistence that the Second Amendment gives individuals a broad right to own guns comes from two places.

 

One is the establishment of the National Rifle Association in New York in 1871, in part to improve the marksmanship skills of American citizens who might be called on to fight in another war, and in part to promote in America the British sport of elite shooting, complete with hefty cash prizes in newly organized tournaments. Just a decade after the Civil War, veterans jumped at the chance to hone their former skills. Rifle clubs sprang up across the nation.

 

By the 1920s, rifle shooting was a popular American sport. “Riflemen” competed in the Olympics, in colleges, and in local, state, and national tournaments organized by the NRA. Being a good marksman was a source of pride, mentioned in public biographies, like being a good golfer. In 1925, when the secretary of the NRA apparently took money from ammunition and arms manufacturers, the organization tossed him out and sued him.

 

NRA officers insisted on the right of citizens to own rifles and handguns but worked hard to distinguish between law-abiding citizens who should have access to guns for hunting and target shooting and protection, and criminals and mentally ill people, who should not. In 1931, amid fears of bootlegger gangs, the NRA backed federal legislation to limit concealed weapons; prevent possession by criminals, the mentally ill and children; to require all dealers to be licensed; and to require background checks before delivery. It backed the 1934 National Firearms Act, and parts of the 1968 Gun Control Act, designed to stop what seemed to be America’s hurtle toward violence in that turbulent decade.

 

But in the mid-1970s, a faction in the NRA forced the organization away from sports and toward opposing “gun control.” It formed a political action committee (PAC) in 1975, and two years later it elected an organization president who abandoned sporting culture and focused instead on “gun rights.”

 

This was the second thing that led us to where we are today: leaders of the NRA embraced the politics of Movement Conservatism, the political movement that rose to combat the business regulations and social welfare programs that both Democrats and Republicans embraced after World War II. Movement Conservatives embraced the myth of the American cowboy as a white man standing against the “socialism” of the federal government as it sought to level the economic playing field between Black Americans and their white neighbors. 

 

Leaders like Arizona Senator Barry Goldwater personified the American cowboy, with his cowboy hat and opposition to government regulation, while television Westerns showed good guys putting down bad guys without the interference of the government.

 

In 1972, the Republican platform had called for gun control to restrict the sale of “cheap handguns,” but in 1975, as he geared up to challenge President Gerald R. Ford for the 1976 presidential nomination, Movement Conservative hero Ronald Reagan took a stand against gun control. In 1980, the Republican platform opposed the federal registration of firearms, and the NRA endorsed a presidential candidate—Reagan—for the first time.
When President Reagan took office, a new American era, dominated by Movement Conservatives, began. And the power of the NRA over American politics grew.

In 1981 a gunman trying to kill Reagan shot and paralyzed his press secretary, James Brady, and wounded Secret Service agent Tim McCarthy and police officer Thomas Delahanty. After the shooting, then-representative Charles Schumer (D-NY) introduced legislation that became known as the Brady Handgun Violence Prevention Act, or the Brady Bill, to require background checks before gun purchases. Reagan, who was a member of the NRA, endorsed the bill, but the NRA spent millions of dollars to defeat it.

 

After the Brady Bill passed in 1993, the NRA paid for lawsuits in nine states to strike it down. Until 1959, every single legal article on the Second Amendment concluded that it was not intended to guarantee individuals the right to own a gun. But in the 1970s, legal scholars funded by the NRA had begun to argue that the Second Amendment did exactly that.

In 1997, when the Brady Bill cases came before the Supreme Court as Printz v. United States, the Supreme Court declared parts of the measure unconstitutional.

 

Now a player in national politics, the NRA was awash in money from gun and ammunition manufacturers. By 2000 it was one of the three most powerful lobbies in Washington. It spent more than $40 million on the 2008 election. In that year, the landmark Supreme Court decision of District of Columbia v. Heller struck down gun regulations and declared that the Second Amendment protects an individual’s right to keep and bear arms.

 

Increasingly, NRA money backed Republican candidates. In 2012 the NRA spent $9 million in the presidential election, and in 2014 it spent $13 million. Then, in 2016, it spent over $50 million on Republican candidates, including more than $30 million on Trump’s effort to win the White House. This money was vital to Trump, since many other Republican super PACs refused to back him. The NRA spent more money on Trump than any other outside group, including the leading Trump super PAC, which spent $20.3 million.

 

The unfettered right to own and carry weapons has come to symbolize the Republican Party’s ideology of individual liberty. Lawmakers and activists have not been able to overcome Republican insistence on gun rights despite the mass shootings that have risen since their new emphasis on guns. Even though 90% of Americans—including nearly 74% of NRA members—support background checks, Republicans have killed such legislation by filibustering it.  

 

The NRA will hold its 2022 annual meeting this Friday in Houston. Former president Trump will speak, along with Texas governor Greg Abbott, senator Ted Cruz, and representative Dan Crenshaw; North Carolina lieutenant governor Mark Robinson; and South Dakota governor Kristi Noem—all Republicans. NRA executive vice president and chief executive officer Wayne LaPierre expressed his enthusiasm for the lineup by saying: “President Trump delivered on his promises by appointing judges who respect and value the Constitution and the Bill of Rights and in doing so helped ensure the freedom of generations of Americans.”

 

Tonight, President Joe Biden spoke to the nation: “Why are we willing to live with this carnage? Why do we keep letting this happen?... It’s time to turn this pain into action. For every parent, for every citizen in this country, we have to make it clear to every elected official in this country, it’s time to act.” In the Senate, Chris Murphy (D-CT) said, "I am here on this floor, to beg, to literally get down on my hands and knees and beg my colleagues....find a way to pass laws that make this less likely."

But it was Steve Kerr, the coach of the Golden State Warriors basketball team, whose father was murdered by gunmen in Beirut, Lebanon, in 1984, who best expressed the outrage of the nation. At a press conference tonight, shaking, he said, “I’m not going to talk about basketball…. Any basketball questions don’t matter…. Fourteen children were killed 400 miles from here, and a teacher, and in the last ten days we’ve had elderly Black people killed in a supermarket in Buffalo, we’ve had Asian churchgoers killed in Southern California, and now we have children murdered at school. WHEN ARE WE GONNA DO SOMETHING? I’m tired, I’m so tired of getting up here and offering condolences to the devastated families…. I’m tired of the moments of silence. Enough. There’s 50 senators…who refuse to vote on HR 8, which is a background check rule that the House passed a couple years ago…. [N]inety percent of Americans, regardless of political party, want…universal background checks…. We are being held hostage by 50 senators in Washington who refuse to even put it to a vote despite what we the American people want…because they want to hold onto their own power. It’s pathetic,” he said, walking out of the press conference. 

 

[rajncajn]

Things that I think would help with mental health:

 

-Put licensed child therapists assigned to all schools. Number of therapists dependent on number of students. Require it for any grade school orcollege public or private. Therapists are available 24/7 for child or parents regarding child via hotline.

 

-I don't know how you would do this,  but more programs that get kids away from screens and active with other kids and the community. Require public service hours for all graduation. Require involvement in clubs/sports/activities outside of course curriculum.

 

-Make outside tutoring more available/accessible to all grade school kids. This shouldn't be something exclusive to big money schools.

 

-School involvement in mentoring programs that might help kids who's parental situation may be less desirable,  such as single parent/no parent households. 

[rajncajn]

1 hour ago, gilthorp said:

The Second Amendment to the Constitution, on which modern-day arguments for widespread gun ownership rest, is one simple sentence: “A well regulated militia, being necessary for the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.” There’s not a lot to go on about what the Framers meant, although in their day, to “bear arms” meant to be part of an organized militia.

The problem with making any argument using the 2nd Amendment is that it can only go two ways. Gun ownership by private citizens is legal or it's not legal. If you're trying to pass legislation that only limits gun ownership in some way, "the right to own a gun is not valid to begin with" is a really bad starting point.

[darin3]

Sigh.  Getting rid of "recreational" assault rifles seems to be a pretty decent start.  

[League_Champion]

1 hour ago, rajncajn said:

A few things that I think would help with just the gun issue:

 

-Raising the age limit that one can purchase or possess unsupervised any firearm to 21 unless that person can meet very specific criteria like passing a certification test, outlining necessity and passing a firearm safety course.

 

-All guns sold must come equipped with a proper locking device.

 

-Parents must be held in some more meaningful way responsible for children accessing their guns and committing crimes with them. They also should be held responsible for ignoring warning signs and/or promoting hateful rhetoric or providing an abusive environment that likely helped lead to the act.

 

Every gun that I've ever purchased has come with a trigger lock of some sorts. Perhaps cheaper guns don't, I'm not sure. I have 3 Biometric Gun Safes and a big stand alone safe that I can barely get into to. My kids have taken gun safety courses and understand the responsibility that comes with them. They've been around firearms their entire lives much like I have.

 

I guess what I'm saying is that if you own firearms please take the time to understand them and understand the responsibility that comes along with being a gun owner. Teaching your kids to fear guns is not doing them any favors. 

[League_Champion]

3 minutes ago, darin3 said:

Sigh.  Getting rid of "recreational" assault rifles seems to be a pretty decent start.  

 

Why? I hunt, I target shoot. Does that mean I'm going to kill you? And do you even know what an "assault rifle" is?? Is that a rifle that looks scary to you? Because it's no different from any other rifle. 

[darin3]

1 minute ago, League_Champion said:

 

Every gun that I've ever purchased has come with a trigger lock of some sorts. Perhaps cheaper guns don't, I'm not sure. I have 3 Biometric Gun Safes and a big stand alone safe that I can barely get into to. My kids have taken gun safety courses and understand the responsibility that comes with them. They've been around firearms their entire lives much like I have.

 

I guess what I'm saying is that if you own firearms please take the time to understand them and understand the responsibility that comes along with being a gun owner. Teaching your kids to fear guns is not doing them any favors. 

 

Responsible gun ownership.      

 

Unfortunately it's just not always the case.