Duchess Jack Posted April 9, 2007 Share Posted April 9, 2007 But I would love to hear folks take on it. Its something I have been struggling with for a long long time. Basically… How does God’s omniscience, his existence outside of time, his intimate knowledge of us – our inner workings, buttons and whatnot allow for free will? We have computers that can predict how a nuclear bomb is going to blow up. We didn’t create the atoms or matter used in the bomb – we didn’t create the world it is to blow up in nor did we create the laws everything has to abide by - yet our limited knowledge of these things allow us to take damn near every variable into the equation and have a pretty good idea of how things are going to go. We are using his toys – his tools – his laws and are doing pretty well for ourselves. To say our knowledge is like a grain of sand and his is like the universe seems like a laughable understatement. If God is truly omniscient and outside of time – how can he NOT know how we’ll react to everything. There are no variables. He created us, the universe and the laws of our universe. He should know how I would react in ANY situation. How I react is a sum of my experiences. My experiences are based upon his other creations (people, environment, etc). He should know how they would react in any situation. He should how all things should interact. How is there any free will? The only way I can come close to justifying ‘free will’ is to see God and Satan as vastly more similar in power then they are painted. Otherwise – how can things not go according to his plan? Just wondering if anyone has a good take on this. My brother-in-law is a youth minister and there was nothing he said that could account for this paradox. He tried - but it all sounded like BS. It never addressed the core of things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
polksalet Posted April 9, 2007 Share Posted April 9, 2007 I believe he chooses not to. I know that sounds wild but if he is truly omnipotent and all powerful, can he also choose NOT to know something? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
broncosn05 Posted April 9, 2007 Share Posted April 9, 2007 Kind of like the Matrix. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pope Flick Posted April 9, 2007 Share Posted April 9, 2007 The question is flawed: it assumes that because she/he knows how we will react means we don't have a choice in it. Maybe She/He knows our choice? I'm of the opinion that any meaningful question about religion is doomed because it's based on our experiences of 3 dimensions and 5 senses. I'm going to go on a limb, at the risk of sounding hypocritical, and assume She/He has more to work with. We're fish in an aquarium. She/He's kicking it in the living room reading the paper checking us out every now and then perhaps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duchess Jack Posted April 9, 2007 Author Share Posted April 9, 2007 (edited) The question is flawed: it assumes that because she/he knows how we will react means we don't have a choice in it. Maybe She/He knows our choice? I'm of the opinion that any meaningful question about religion is doomed because it's based on our experiences of 3 dimensions and 5 senses. I'm going to go on a limb, at the risk of sounding hypocritical, and assume She/He has more to work with. We're fish in an aquarium. She/He's kicking it in the living room reading the paper checking us out every now and then perhaps. Are they decisions though - or the perception of free will? If we are put upon this earth and God knows the decisions we will make - then there was never a choice to be made. I use the mortal understanding vs godly understanding (3 dimensions, 5 senses v infinite dimensions, infinite senses) all the time to help me accept things - but it hasn't helped me here. Seems to clear cut (from my insignifigant mortal understanding) Edited April 9, 2007 by Duchess Jack Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pope Flick Posted April 9, 2007 Share Posted April 9, 2007 Are they decisions though - or the perception of free will? If we are put upon this earth and God knows the decisions we will make - then there was never a choice to be made. I use the mortal understanding vs godly understanding (3 dimensions, 5 senses v infinite dimensions, infinite senses) all the time to help me accept things - but it hasn't helped me here. Seems to clear cut (from my insignifigant mortal understanding) I'll say that "God knows" is not the same as "I know" and I won't dwell on whether or not I actually HAVE free will, but am content in my perception that I have it. That's really all I need. Otherwise, I'm just going to brain fart. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Dick Posted April 9, 2007 Share Posted April 9, 2007 The easiest answer is: there is no God. Still struggling with that one, and have been for 20 years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaptainHook Posted April 9, 2007 Share Posted April 9, 2007 (edited) Are they decisions though - or the perception of free will? If we are put upon this earth and God knows the decisions we will make - then there was never a choice to be made. I use the mortal understanding vs godly understanding (3 dimensions, 5 senses v infinite dimensions, infinite senses) all the time to help me accept things - but it hasn't helped me here. Seems to clear cut (from my insignifigant mortal understanding) Just like we can choose to turn on a radio or television to see what the weather will be like tomorrow, God can choose whether or not to look into the future and see our choices. It doesn't mean that our choices are pre-determined. Just that he can choose to see the choice we made. Your question is one of perception. A buddy of mine and I have had this argument several times. Edited April 9, 2007 by CaptainHook Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
godtomsatan Posted April 9, 2007 Share Posted April 9, 2007 The only way I can come close to justifying ‘free will’ is to see God and Satan as vastly more similar in power then they are painted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duchess Jack Posted April 9, 2007 Author Share Posted April 9, 2007 (edited) I believe he chooses not to. I know that sounds wild but if he is truly omnipotent and all powerful, can he also choose NOT to know something? . Just like we can choose to turn on a radio or television to see what the weather will be like tomorrow, God can choose whether or not to look into the future and see our choices. It doesn't mean that our choices are pre-determined. Just that he can choose to see the choice we made. Your question is one of perception. A buddy of mine and I have had this argument several times. I would think it obvious to him - like knowing water will extinguish fire. ((bad analogy)) you're God you dcide that it would be cool to create a duck pond - and what's cooler, is you decide to create a lit candle beneath the water. You know all about fire and you know all about water - heck, you created them. The moment you decide to create the candle underwater - you've destined that candle to be put out. It seems part of the creation process and thusly a proactive thing. blah... shouldn't bug me as much as it does Edited April 9, 2007 by Duchess Jack Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TitansFan Posted April 9, 2007 Share Posted April 9, 2007 First you have to define "free will." According to the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy, free will is "a philosophical term of art for a particular sort of capacity of rational agents to choose a course of action from among various alternatives." Basically, the ability to choose one thing over others. Every day you have to make choices, and God already knows what your choice will be. However, this does not mean we don't have free will. Just because He knows your choice doesn't mean He makes you choose that particular action/object. It's still your choice whether or not someone knows what your choice will be. Yes, God knows our choices, and if He wanted to, He could make us choose the option that would bring us closer to him. This would take away our free will though, so he does not force us, meaning we still have the ability to choose. Thus, by the definition above, we still have free will. Hope this helps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChuckB Posted April 9, 2007 Share Posted April 9, 2007 God created this earth and all surroundings including us. We were created in his likeness and was given "free will" to make our own decisions. Our outcome depends on our decisions, and if he were to make our decisions for us the world would not be what it is. The true test is to have "faith" which is what all religion and the belief in god is based on. You can try your whole life to find logical reasoning behind religion and the beliefs that go with it and in the end not know what a real relationship with god is. I have struggled in my teen and adult years to try to come to terms with the religion I grew up in and my relationship with god and the only answer to this conundrum is to have "faith". For the scientific and super logical thinkers I'm sure this will not cut it, but to truly be at ease with the whole idea and be comfortable in a religion is to rely on faith. I can't tell you how back in the day (according to the bible) Methusala(sp?) and others lived for hundreds of years, and how Moses parted the red sea....but maybe that is the ultimate test? To let go of reasoning and fully trust in your religion and what god has told us? Many will say you got to be stupid to believe that...but maybe that's the idea, can we make it past all of that and still believe in god and stick to what we believe in? For those of us who can weather the storm and still say I believe in god and welcome him into my life, disregarding all the ridicule, maybe that's what is expected of us and what will get us into heaven? I myself am a logical thinker and usually need proof to back up anything...but I also have a strong background in the church and even though the way I live my life now contradicts a lot of what I learned in the church (which is why I don't profess my religious beliefs on a regular basis, so as not to be hypocritical) I still have faith in god and nothing anyone can say would change my deep rooted feelings towards this. So I keep goin on living the way I do and hope one day I will live a life closer to god and be a better person. This issue is so involved and I have so many questions myself, which is why I don't usually get into these discussions, but the answer to most of these questions (which wil not be good enough for most) is you have to have faith. Just my $.02, and I will not be drawn into a hugh discussion over this, so don't even try it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billay Posted April 9, 2007 Share Posted April 9, 2007 (edited) I think we've discussed God's foreknowledge vs free will before. We have funny conceptions of God. I think most definitions of God revolve around perfection, or that to which nothing can be added. That gives us an omnicient, omnipotent being, but that's a pretty simplistic way of looking at it. Where's the subtlety? Why must God be omnipotent? If God can't will anything into existence, but is limited by certain natural laws of a physical reality, does that really make him/her less than God? What if the only other option is nothingness. Total, all encompassing nothingness, and the mind of God (assuming that "God" is a conscious entity such as ourselves, but for me that's what "made in his image" means, not that God is a homoerectus, but a conscious being) So we can have nothingness, or through will and power we can have the universe that we live in. God is a mover and a shaker, an organizer, a manipulator. He gets things rolling, out of nothing, Aristotle's prime mover, himself unmoved. Once that ball get's rolling however, it takes on a life of it's own. The universe is "good" which is to say that it's more than nothngness and provides limitless opportunities for existence, but once existing, it has it's own inherient set of rules. God was responsible for getting things started, but he/she's not controlling everything that goes on in there. That's still a pretty kick-a$$ show of power isn't it? Why must such a limitation be mutually exclusive with our conception of God? As for God's omnicience, again, why must it be so? Take Duchess' example of an Atomic bomb. We can build the thing and we can drop it. We can choose where to drop it and when. We know that it is going to explode and we know people will die, but we don't know precicely who will be killed and how. Maybe some guy's house collapses just so that he is protected and spared. Two guys standing right next to one another, one guy dies and the other guy doesn't. We can't explain why, and we can't know the outcomes resulting from such complexity. God, as they say, is in the details, but maybe God doesn't know either. Why must he? Why need he? If you assume all of this, then you get a nearly omnipotent, nearly omnicient God and you can keep your free will too. Edited April 9, 2007 by billay Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonorator Posted April 9, 2007 Share Posted April 9, 2007 (edited) If God is truly omniscient and outside of time – how can he NOT know how we’ll react to everything. There are no variables. He created us, the universe and the laws of our universe. He should know how I would react in ANY situation. How I react is a sum of my experiences. My experiences are based upon his other creations (people, environment, etc). He should know how they would react in any situation. He should how all things should interact. How is there any free will? i'm not sure I understand your dilemma. seems perfectly reasonable that we would have free will and in addition to that, God already knows what choices we will make. him knowing what choice i will make before i make it does not take away my ability to make it. what i struggle with is the idea that God is playing an active role in my life and that he has a specific purpose for me (and everyone else). i think there is an overall purpose on a grand scale, but outside of that, we were meant to have the ability to make our own choices vs. all of our lives being some intricate web of circumstances all designed for a particular outcome for each of us. ultimately, this world will conform to his will, and some will definitely play an active part in that, guided by his hand. if you are one of those persons, i think you will know. Edited April 9, 2007 by tonorator Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duchess Jack Posted April 9, 2007 Author Share Posted April 9, 2007 (edited) i'm not sure I understand your dilemma. seems perfectly reasonable that we would have free will and in addition to that, God already knows what choices we will make. him knowing what choice i will make before i make it does not take away my ability to make it. We are dealing with what we see as variable and the unknown. There are no variables or unknowns to God. Its all issues of cause and effect. God creates the creature and the catalysts. Our paths would be set the very moment of our creation. Our not knowing how we'll react to our enviroment does not make those inevidable reactions free will. I'd like to believe we have free will - but it does not seem to fit into the idea many have of God. Again - the only way I can see us having free will is if there were things that God could not account for like an opposing force powerful enough to counter or disrupt Gods plan. Edited April 9, 2007 by Duchess Jack Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cliaz Posted April 9, 2007 Share Posted April 9, 2007 G*d is an Astronaut Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonorator Posted April 9, 2007 Share Posted April 9, 2007 We are dealing with what we see as variable and the unknown. There are no variables or unknowns to God. Its all issues of cause and effect. God creates the creature and the catalysts. Our paths would be set the very moment of our creation. Our not knowing how we'll react to our enviroment does not make those inevidable reacts free will. I'd like to believe we have free will - but it does not seem to fit into the idea many have of God. Again - the only way I can see us having free will is if there were things that God could not account for like an opposing force powerful enough to counter or disrupt Gods plan. i don't think all the individual paths are set. the bible tells us in revelations how the grand plan will culminate, but i don't believe all the details (us) are merely playing our role in a big cause and effect game where our outcomes are predetermined before we are born. and then whether God knows or not how our lives will turn out, again, doesn't mean that the outcome of our lives will not be a matter of our own choosing. to remove our ability to choose and shape our lives via our own active will pretty much removes us from the equation altogether. if that is so, then you are right - we are merely trekking toward our inevitable outcomes and we have no say in the matter. this, to me, seems harder to believe. i like to think of the world as a big bowl of soup and God has thrown in all kinds of stuff. he made the stove, the pot, and the stuff, but exactly how it is mixed and comes together is not that tightly controlled. the soup will be made, and will fill it's purpose in his overall dinner plan, but how every individual morsel is cooked and flavored is not orchestrated. if he were to make many pots of soup, they would all still fill the role in his dinner plan, but each would be unique along the way. based on this argument, 'i like soup' could indeed be God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Red Posted April 9, 2007 Share Posted April 9, 2007 Logic has no place in religion, and if you ask a question containing it, it is your fault. I like how you are told that Gold loves you, wants you to do well and blah blah blah. However, if you don't believe in him and some other stuff, you'll burn in hell. Sounds like a third world dictator to me. I'd think a 'loving' creator would reward you if he wanted, but not punish you like that, just leave you out of the bonus round. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muck Posted April 9, 2007 Share Posted April 9, 2007 Do you know what a Monte Carlo simulator is? I think that's kinda how free-will works. God knows all future paths that can occur from an unfathomably large number of variables and how these variables interact. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tford Posted April 9, 2007 Share Posted April 9, 2007 Do you know what a Monte Carlo simulator is? I think that's kinda how free-will works. God knows all future paths that can occur from an unfathomably large number of variables and how these variables interact. This is what I believe. I think that there are multiple "futures" that God knows all of, but the choices we as humans make affect which course true time takes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coffeeman Posted April 9, 2007 Share Posted April 9, 2007 Where is Az? He's usually good for this kind of thing. I've heard the 'He chooses not to know sometimes' answer before, and that's good enough for me. Its also interesting to note that a few people in the OT actually 'changed God's mind' (so to speak). That is, they changed the path He was prepared to take, usually to show some mercy on a group of people. So that begs the question - was He just hoping/waiting for someone (He probably knew who) to beseech Him to change the plan, or did He know for sure that person would do that, based on that person's known character? So when that happened, was God's plan/reasoning faulty to begin with? Uh, no - not if you believe everything else the Bible says. So it must mean that God allows for man's freewill to occasionally change the course of events; so He allows a little backdoor for them to do what He is hoping they will do, but not predetermining what they will do. At this time of Easter, its reassuring to know that God is charge of the big things - like knowing (with 100% certainty) that His Son would not disappoint Him 2000 years ago when He sent Him on the biggest mission of all time. And yet allow Himself to be 'pleasantly surprised' by a person's good choice(s) from time to time... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sleeping King Posted April 9, 2007 Share Posted April 9, 2007 I think of it like this. God reads this book. This book outlines everything that will ever happen. Yes he knows what will happen and yes he even wrote the book but the decisions you make are what is in the book. It was just outlined a long time ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
isleseeya Posted April 9, 2007 Share Posted April 9, 2007 Where is Az? He's usually good for this kind of thing. I've heard the 'He chooses not to know sometimes' answer before, and that's good enough for me. Its also interesting to note that a few people in the OT actually 'changed God's mind' (so to speak). That is, they changed the path He was prepared to take, usually to show some mercy on a group of people. So that begs the question - was He just hoping/waiting for someone (He probably knew who) to beseech Him to change the plan, or did He know for sure that person would do that, based on that person's known character? So when that happened, was God's plan/reasoning faulty to begin with? Uh, no - not if you believe everything else the Bible says. So it must mean that God allows for man's freewill to occasionally change the course of events; so He allows a little backdoor for them to do what He is hoping they will do, but not predetermining what they will do. At this time of Easter, its reassuring to know that God is charge of the big things - like knowing (with 100% certainty) that His Son would not disappoint Him 2000 years ago when He sent Him on the biggest mission of all time. And yet allow Himself to be 'pleasantly surprised' by a person's good choice(s) from time to time... I agree in large part with this ... For me it is quite simple , free will is the ability to choose to do good and what's right vs doing what's wrong ...and I believe God has paths for us , he knows the path , but we have the choice of which path to eventually walk ...I also believe he does play a role in everyday lives ...do not believe in coincidences...things , even the small ones happen for a reason Lastly I believe He is laughing at this thread right now Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cdrudge Posted April 9, 2007 Share Posted April 9, 2007 God knows all future paths that can occur from an unfathomably large number of variables and how these variables interact.We live in one of but infinitely many dimensions of a multi-dimensional universe. At any one time all things that could happen to something do happen. God just can see "the big picture". Of course that brings up the question, what happens if in some other dimension, there exists a universe where there isn't a god. Does God still know about that? My personal belief is that God knows the destination. It's up to us to determine the path. My first class in college was a philosophy class and we talked about the existence of a higher being, creationism, omnipotence, etc for close to 2/3 of the semester. At the end we unanimously concluded that we could absolutely positively guarantee that God may or may not exist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grits and Shins Posted April 9, 2007 Share Posted April 9, 2007 I don't quite follow the logic leap from: God knows everything to Therefore man has no free will. I know what my children will do many times before they do it ... how did my knowledge remove their free will to do one thing over another? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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