Coin flip

[purplemonster]

I haven't given this a lot of thought but something that seems mildly silly is receive, kick, defer at the beginning of a game. How about just receive first half or kick first half? Then the other team can decide what side. And it reverses in 3rd half. 

Has there been a team in the last 100 years that would rather have their defense on both kickoffs? 

Edited May 31, 2023 by purplemonster

[stevegrab]

Doesn't seem broken, so maybe we shouldn't be trying to fix it  

Did a bit of research, and found some examples including one that fits.

1986 NFC champ game, Giants won the toss and chose which end to avoid going into the wind. 2nd half Redskins chose to receive the ball. 1999 MIN deferring and chose to kickoff against Chicago in 2nd half. Also found some mention of a Texas-UCLA game where UCLA won and deferred, and Texas chose to kickoff the first half.

MIN-CHI game (was mentioned in a reddit thread with the link)

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/boxscores/199911140chi.htm

[chester]

As trivial as it is, the coin flip adds a little bit of fun to a game that is increasingly lacking in the little things. 

[rajncajn]

4 hours ago, purplemonster said:

I haven't given this a lot of thought but something that seems mildly silly is receive, kick, defer at the beginning of a game. How about just receive first half or kick first half? Then the other team can decide what side. And it reverses in 3rd half. 

Has there been a team in the last 100 years that would rather have their defense on both kickoffs? 

The rule is whoever receives the first half then kicks off the second half. There is no recieve, kick, defer. The winner of the toss either decides to receive to start the game or defer to receive at the start of the second half.

[Big John]

The rule is to defer, receive, or pick the side of the field to defend.

[stevegrab]

1 hour ago, Big John said:

The rule is to defer, receive, or pick the side of the field to defend.

That is correct, though the NFL rulebook doesn't do a great job of including the "defer" option. Which isn't deferring receiving kickoff but deferring the decision. 

https://operations.nfl.com/media/5kvgzyss/2022-nfl-rulebook-final.pdf

See Section 2 STARTING A PERIOD OR HALF Article 2 Toss of Coin (page 20 of linked doc), specifically the text below that is bolded (the a & b above they refer to are choosing to kick/receive or choosing which end to defend. 

"For the second half, the captain who lost the pregame toss is to have the first choice of the two privileges listed in (a) or (b), unless one of the teams lost its first and second half options, or unless the winner of the pregame toss deferred his choice to the second half, in which case he must choose (a) or (b) above. Immediately prior to the start of the second half, the captains of both teams must inform the Referee of their respective choices."

Edited May 31, 2023 by stevegrab

[rajncajn]

1 hour ago, stevegrab said:

That is correct, though the NFL rulebook doesn't do a great job of including the "defer" option. Which isn't deferring receiving kickoff but deferring the decision. 

No, the winner of the coin toss is not deferring the decision. If that was the case then the loser of the coin toss could just force the winner to receive the ball anyway. The winner of the toss gets to decide when they receive the kickoff. Either they take the kickoff at the start of the game or they "defer" receiving the kickoff to the second half.

[darin3]

Boy, we must be in the absolute deadest dead part of the off-season.   

Edited May 31, 2023 by darin3

[stevegrab]

52 minutes ago, rajncajn said:

No, the winner of the coin toss is not deferring the decision. If that was the case then the loser of the coin toss could just force the winner to receive the ball anyway. The winner of the toss gets to decide when they receive the kickoff. Either they take the kickoff at the start of the game or they "defer" receiving the kickoff to the second half.

Nope, you are wrong. Did you even bother to check the actual NFL rules that I posted? Especially the bolded part which talks about the team who deferred having a choice of options in the 2nd half? Totally debunks your point. 

I read what you posted, I read what Big John said, then I did my own research, went to the actual SOURCE of the rules. Not sure what you are basing your posts on, but if its some actual rules we can refer to let's see them. Otherwise it is just what you remember, or believe. 

[Shaft]

2 hours ago, darin3 said:

Boy, we must be in the absolute deadest dead part of the off-season.   

[Chief Dick]

2 hours ago, stevegrab said:

Nope, you are wrong. Did you even bother to check the actual NFL rules that I posted? Especially the bolded part which talks about the team who deferred having a choice of options in the 2nd half? Totally debunks your point. 

I read what you posted, I read what Big John said, then I did my own research, went to the actual SOURCE of the rules. Not sure what you are basing your posts on, but if its some actual rules we can refer to let's see them. Otherwise it is just what you remember, or believe. 

Looks like you win. Congrats.  

 

 

[Gopher]

Think of it like a serpentine draft.  You get first choice of either who kicks, or which direction you want to go.  Or, you can defer, which basically gives your opponent first choice, but then you get choices #2 and #3 (#2 being whatever they didn't pick for the first half, between who kicks and which direction, and #3 being first choice of either for the second half).  

So, Team A wins the toss and defers.  That puts the ball in Team B's court (decision-wise), in which case they are always going to choose to receive.  Because, if they don't (if they choose which direction instead), they would essentially be giving Team A first possession in both halves.  Based purely on numbers, nobody is going to give up a possession to have the wind at their back, especially since they swap ends each quarter anyway. 

[purplemonster]

On 5/31/2023 at 5:57 PM, Gopher said:

Think of it like a serpentine draft.  You get first choice of either who kicks, or which direction you want to go.  Or, you can defer, which basically gives your opponent first choice, but then you get choices #2 and #3 (#2 being whatever they didn't pick for the first half, between who kicks and which direction, and #3 being first choice of either for the second half).  

So, Team A wins the toss and defers.  That puts the ball in Team B's court (decision-wise), in which case they are always going to choose to receive.  Because, if they don't (if they choose which direction instead), they would essentially be giving Team A first possession in both halves.  Based purely on numbers, nobody is going to give up a possession to have the wind at their back, especially since they swap ends each quarter anyway. 

That's kind of why I just felt just say kick, receive for the winner, and then the other team picks which way to kick. Or, if you really want to include it, the winner can choose which goal to defend, and then the other team can decide whether to kick or receive right away.  I know it is almost ridiculous to argue over but seems much simpler. 

[1fastdoc]

I like pizza.

[purplemonster]

Packers almost screw up coin toss. Why don't they just have you say kick or receive and other team picks a side. And then it flips 2nd half? Or if you really want pick what side you want and the other team picks to kick or receive and then it flips 2nd half? My problem is the word 'defer' it means nothing to many people. 'Deferred taxes' confuses 50% + of the population. So I am not making a choice now, but choosing to make a choice later, which I already know what that is? Thats what defer means in this context. Unnecessarily complicated. 

https://www.yahoo.com/sports/packers-suspend-jaire-alexander-after-he-nearly-mixed-up-coin-toss-182028007.html

 

The Green Bay Packers have placed cornerback Jaire Alexander on the reserve/suspended list for "conduct detrimental to the team" regarding his participation in Sunday's pregame coin toss before their 33-30 win over the Carolina Panthers.

"The decision to suspend a player is never easy and not one we take lightly. Unfortunately, Jaire's actions prior to the game in Carolina led us to take this step," said Packers general manager Brian Gutekunst. "As an organization, we have an expectation that everyone puts the team first. While we are disappointed, we had a good conversation with Jaire this morning and fully expect him to learn from this as we move forward together. We look forward to welcoming him back next week, as he is a valued member of this team and will continue to be in the future."

Alexander will miss Sunday's game against the Minnesota Vikings, the team the 7-8 Packers are currently tied with in the NFC North.

Ahead of last Sunday's coin toss, Alexander joined the Packers' three game captains — Aaron Jones, Quay Walker and Eric Wilson — at midfield and called tails, winning the toss. The cornerback then told referee Alex Kemp that he wanted to be on defense. Kemp clarified by asking if he meant defer, to which Alexander said yes.

"I said, 'I want our defense to be out there,' and they all looked at me like I was crazy," Alexander said afterward. "I'm like, I mean, it's pretty simple what I said, like I want the defense to be out there. They like, 'You mean defer?' and I'm like, 'Yeah, I guess.'"

When a team wins the coin toss, fans might think they then get to choose whether to kick or return to open the game, with the understanding that the second half will open the opposite way.

It's actually a bit more complicated than that. Instead of kicking or returning, teams are actually deciding when they want the choice to kick or return to open a half. If a team says "we'll receive," that's fine; they're just saying they are making the choice now and would like to receive the ball.

But you must never, ever say, "we'll kick." Because an official might interpret that as deciding you are making the choice to open the game by kicking off, and then the other team will make its choice at the start of the second half, at which point they will obviously choose to receive, resulting in your team kicking off to start both halves. That's why players always say "defer," because they are deferring their team's choice to the second half.

"That was a big mistake," Packers head coach Matt LaFleur said. "That's something that you review with the guys before they go out there every time about, 'Hey, we win the toss, we're going to defer.' I went to the officials before the game, made sure they knew what we were going to do. We had an incident earlier this year where we had a similar situation, so always trying to be proactive in that approach."

The Packers have been rotating their captains weekly, and while Alexander wasn't scheduled to be part of the Week 16 group, he said LaFleur knew the game was being played in his hometown.

"It's only suiting," Alexander said. "I don't think Coach knew I was from Charlotte."

Edited December 27, 2023 by purplemonster

[FinishTheDrill]

On 5/31/2023 at 8:36 AM, stevegrab said:

Doesn't seem broken, so maybe we shouldn't be trying to fix it

 

^This.   

[Finn5033]

I’ll admit I didn’t know that you had to say defer if you win the toss and want the ball on offense after halftime. I didn’t even know there was the option to be on defense first at the start of the game and after halftime. 
 

that whole situation with Alexander is a mess. I bet the Packers are regretting making him the highest paid corner in the league. He has not lived up to that contract and it sounds like he is a headache off the field as well as on it. It takes a special kind of ego to name yourself a captain, and walk out to the coin toss without the head coaches approval. Clearly Lafleur was right in not naming him a captain for the week.

Edited December 28, 2023 by Finn5033

[1fastdoc]

I'm confused.  So, he said defense meaning that they'd kick, which would screw them in the 2nd half when the other team would choose to receive.  But the ref clarified and asked him if he'd defer, to which he said yes, which is ok.  I didn't see the game but I assume they then kicked in the 1st half and received in the 2nd.  Is that not what happened? 

 

[Gopher]

4 hours ago, 1fastdoc said:

I'm confused.  So, he said defense meaning that they'd kick, which would screw them in the 2nd half when the other team would choose to receive.  But the ref clarified and asked him if he'd defer, to which he said yes, which is ok.  I didn't see the game but I assume they then kicked in the 1st half and received in the 2nd.  Is that not what happened? 

 

Yes.  But the ref did them a favor by asking for clarification (since the proper terminology is to say 'we defer" not "we want defense.").  He didn't need to do that, technically. But, the bigger point is that Alexander shouldn't have been out there in the first place. He invited himself, apparently, because he's from that area. Bottom line... I'm sure these teams make damn sure the captains understand the rules, so they don't botch the coin flip. Otherwise, it wouldn't take much for someone to word it wrong and screw their team.  I'm sure Alexander isn't the only one who has no clue how it works (or, at least, doesn't understand how to verbalize the intention to defer). 

[FWmaker]

Ahhh yes, the olde Toin Coss

[purplemonster]

33 minutes ago, FWmaker said:

Ahhh yes, the olde Toin Coss

 The most exciting part of the game!

[stevegrab]

Just to clarify, the choice given to the coin toss winner is receive or kick or they can choose what end to defend. Or they can defer their choice to the second half. The actual words from the rule are contained in the linked story. The loser of the coin toss makes the choice (kick/receive or end to defend) if the winner defers. Only way somebody "chooses" to start on defense in both halves is to win and pick defense, then opponent takes the ball in 2nd half. Or you won the toss, deferred (opponent chose receive) and you chose D in 2nd half. 

https://ftw.usatoday.com/2022/02/super-bowl-2021-coin-toss-rules