Bronco Billy Posted December 4, 2008 Share Posted December 4, 2008 Spin off from another thread. Should a safety be worth "only" 2 pts in FF? My argument is that a safety is a gigantic play in the course of a football game. Not only does the D score 2 pts - and 2 pts can change the way a game plays out significantly - but the D gets the ball back for the O because of the free kick afterwards. Not only does the D get the ball back - a turnover - but the free kick is from the 20 yd line, meaning that field position should be very good after the kick. So we have a score and a turnover occurring simultaneously with a high probability of very good to great field position for the O, created in one play. There is tremendous impact to the game as it plays out in most cases. I would argue that most leagues only score 2 pts for a safety because they haven't really thought this through and use the knee jerk 2 pt scored on the field as a default. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
detlef Posted December 4, 2008 Share Posted December 4, 2008 As I mentioned in the other thread, 2 pts is way to low for a safety in FF. If a TO is worth 3, safeties need to be worth more. You could make an argument for 4 or perhaps 3, provided TOs were worth 2, but safties should be worth more than TOs. IMO. Sorry BB, looks like you've joined me on the dark side of scoring scrutiny. How does it feel to be so judgmental? I mean, as long as everyone knows the rules going in, what difference does it make? Can't we just get along? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bronco Billy Posted December 4, 2008 Author Share Posted December 4, 2008 Sorry BB, looks like you've joined me on the dark side of scoring scrutiny. How does it feel to be so judgmental? I mean, as long as everyone knows the rules going in, what difference does it make? Can't we just get along? You sure know how to hurt a guy... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peepinmofo Posted December 4, 2008 Share Posted December 4, 2008 Every league Ive EVER played in, theyve always been scored 2 points. Ive always thought about bringing it up to raise the value of them, but I never have. Me personally, I think they should be more than 2. I like the 5 value. Its not a TD, but it is something that happens so infrequently that it should be more valuable than an INT that happens almost every game. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Puddy Posted December 4, 2008 Share Posted December 4, 2008 Well, safeties normally have a sack attached to them as well. So most of the times the play is worth 4 points (or 3 if your league only gives 1 point for a sack). Although I've played in leagues where they are worth 4 on their own and I don't have a problem with it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bronco Billy Posted December 4, 2008 Author Share Posted December 4, 2008 Well, safeties normally have a sack attached to them as well. So most of the times the play is worth 4 points (or 3 if your league only gives 1 point for a sack). Long TD runs have yardage attached to the TD. TD pass plays have yardage AND receptions attached in ppr leagues. That a sack can be attached shouldn't preclude the value of a safety. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
i_am_the_swammi Posted December 4, 2008 Share Posted December 4, 2008 If its apples-to-apples for everyone, what difference does it make if they are worth 2, 4 or 6 points? I see your point that is does indeed change an NFL game significantly, but don't see a point to changing it from the current 2-point FF standard (unless you feel the need to increase the value of defenses relative to other positions in your league). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrTed46 Posted December 4, 2008 Share Posted December 4, 2008 In my league safeties are worth 4 and sacks are worth 1 so most of the time you get 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peepinmofo Posted December 4, 2008 Share Posted December 4, 2008 If its apples-to-apples for everyone, what difference does it make if they are worth 2, 4 or 6 points? I see your point that is does indeed change an NFL game significantly, but don't see a point to changing it from the current 2-point FF standard (unless you feel the need to increase the value of defenses relative to other positions in your league). Because its rare that both teams get a safety in a game. If it happens, then ya its irrelevant, but if you lose by 3 points, but that safety could have scored more points (and only one team gets one), then the team that GOT the safety is rewarded for a play that rarely happens. And by rarely, I mean several a year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avernus Posted December 4, 2008 Share Posted December 4, 2008 I usually make them 6 points...it makes more sense... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Puddy Posted December 4, 2008 Share Posted December 4, 2008 (edited) Because its rare that both teams get a safety in a game. If it happens, then ya its irrelevant, but if you lose by 3 points, but that safety could have scored more points (and only one team gets one), then the team that GOT the safety is rewarded for a play that rarely happens. And by rarely, I mean several a year. I don't really get the frequency of it occuring playing a role. Should we give tackle eligible receivers 12 points for a touchdown? Edited December 4, 2008 by Puddy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikesVikes Posted December 4, 2008 Share Posted December 4, 2008 As I mentioned in the other thread, 2 pts is way to low for a safety in FF. If a TO is worth 3, safeties need to be worth more. You could make an argument for 4 or perhaps 3, provided TOs were worth 2, but safties should be worth more than TOs. IMO. Sorry BB, looks like you've joined me on the dark side of scoring scrutiny. How does it feel to be so judgmental? I mean, as long as everyone knows the rules going in, what difference does it make? Can't we just get along? Good point in that it depends on how turnovers and sacks are scored. Sometimes a sack is 2 points and a safety should be worth more than a sack. There's plenty to argue about in FF scoring such as offensive fumble recovery for a td should count for something but it doesn't in many leagues. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Menudo Posted December 4, 2008 Share Posted December 4, 2008 We changed ours from '2' to '4' several years ago, and we are happy with that value. The rest of our defensive scoring: 2 for INT's 1 for sacks 6 for TD's 0-39 yards 12 for TD's 40+ yards Then there are points lost or gained for how much is allowed by the defense / special teams Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Country Posted December 4, 2008 Share Posted December 4, 2008 If its apples-to-apples for everyone, what difference does it make if they are worth 2, 4 or 6 points? I see your point that is does indeed change an NFL game significantly, but don't see a point to changing it from the current 2-point FF standard (unless you feel the need to increase the value of defenses relative to other positions in your league). Regarding your first point, it is more a matter of comparing the value of the safety vs. the value of other plays that result in FF points for a defense (or defensive player), in this case, the scoring for sacks, INTs, etc., and in the case of IDP, the scoring for tackles. IMO, for the rarer and much more valuable play to an NFL team of a safety, they should certainly be scored more highly than these other plays. So, if you give a sack 2 pts, perhaps 3 or 4 points for a safety is in order (yes, as noted, most safeties are the result of a sack, but the yardage/scoring/reception notes above show that this escalting factor is common place in FF scoring). Also, increasing the points of safeties across the board will do little to the "value" of defenses, both amongst themselves or vs. other positions, as it is a rather rare play and increase in scoring for it, applied equally to all safeties, will have little to no affect on value. Most leagues I am in score them as the standard 2 points, but in those leagues turnovers are worth 1 point each, so it is a fair assesment in my view. If turnovers where 2 points each, I think safety values of 3-5 points would be fair. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gopher Posted December 4, 2008 Share Posted December 4, 2008 I think the rarity of the safety only plays a role in that, if you do give it more points, it's not going to throw your scoring system "out of whack", because the odds of it happening in any single fantasy "game" are maybe 50 to 1. That said, I think the "value" of a safety should include not only the two points scored, but also the value of a turnover. I think 4-5 points is fair/accurate, although it depends on how the rest of your league's scoring is weighted. I've seen it go anywhere from 2 to 6 points, none of which are correct/incorrect... it has more to do with how its value compares to everything else that factors into the scoring. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Randall Posted December 4, 2008 Share Posted December 4, 2008 Don't you get a sack, a tackle and the 2 pts? Wouldn't it be 7 points in most leagues? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FWmaker Posted December 4, 2008 Share Posted December 4, 2008 I don't really get the frequency of it occuring playing a role. Should we give tackle eligible receivers 12 points for a touchdown? Pudsky, you could be the first to draft one. My home league give 4 for a safety Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caveman_Nick Posted December 4, 2008 Share Posted December 4, 2008 Saftey = (2 pts + Sack pts + turnover points) makes sense. But then, a TD is only worth 6 in most cases, and often 3 or 4 if it's a passing TD. I think the league has to reconcile these things. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrTed46 Posted December 4, 2008 Share Posted December 4, 2008 Don't you get a sack, a tackle and the 2 pts? Wouldn't it be 7 points in most leagues? In DST leagues, you rarely get awards points for tackles Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Puddy Posted December 4, 2008 Share Posted December 4, 2008 Pudsky, you could be the first to draft one. However my QB maybe should get 12 points for that. I mean he rarely throws to him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pope Flick Posted December 4, 2008 Share Posted December 4, 2008 My league scores 1 for the sack and two for the safety. I lobbied several years and finally got 2 points for your D recovering a succesful onsides kick. Try getting 11 others to agree with you before their eyes glaze over on THAT one... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big John Posted December 4, 2008 Share Posted December 4, 2008 Saftey = (2 pts + Sack pts + turnover points) makes sense. But then, a TD is only worth 6 in most cases, and often 3 or 4 if it's a passing TD. I think the league has to reconcile these things. A safety is not considered a turnover (not a lost fumble nor interception) on FF scoring other than the safety points itself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sunysteelfly76 Posted December 4, 2008 Share Posted December 4, 2008 A saftey isn't always associated with a sack or a tackle so I don't think that can be used in considering it's value. I like safties being the same as a TD. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steelhead Posted December 4, 2008 Share Posted December 4, 2008 I changed my league to 4 pts for a safety a couple yrs ago. Works out great. We also give out the following: safety = 4 pts blocked fg = 3 pts blocked punt = 2 pts blocked XP = 2 pts Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peepinmofo Posted December 4, 2008 Share Posted December 4, 2008 I don't really get the frequency of it occuring playing a role. Should we give tackle eligible receivers 12 points for a touchdown? No, because a TD is a TD, not a safety. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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