Bill Swerski Posted November 2, 2006 Share Posted November 2, 2006 (edited) Funny. I distinctly remember before Bush actually started playing in the NFL that he was being forecast as the next great RB to come into the pros. The best in the past 20 years or longer, if I remember correctly. Given the RBs that we've seen play in the pros in the past 20 years, I'd say that uber-stud RB would be applicable. Apparently you're confusing "playing below expectations so far" with "bust." Bush is not Ki-Jana Carter or Lawrence Phillips. Edited November 2, 2006 by Bill Swerski Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FishFreak Posted November 2, 2006 Share Posted November 2, 2006 Since it's only eight weeks into the season, it's unfair to call Bush a bust. He has a lot of football to be played in his career so let's wait and see. However, he certainly hasn't lived up to the "once in a lifetime" RB people were saying he was going to be. Remember all the Gale Sayers and Barry Sanders comparisons? This guy is one of the most over-hyped, over rated players to come out in a loooong time. He didn't deserve to win the Heisman either. Vince Young proved that. Plus Lendale White scored 20 TD's in the same backfield at USC last year. Bush was just one of several weapons on that offense that made college defenses look like they had high school players on the field. He's small and not built to carry the load and be an every down back so forget about more touches, that will probably never happen. He's a great decoy and helped the Saints tremendously with season tickets and brought enthusiasm back to New orleans. BUT at the end of the day he's looking more and more like a change of pace third down type of back. Maurice Jones-Drew has very similar skills and was drafted later and will end up being much cheaper, better investment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uggabugga Posted November 2, 2006 Share Posted November 2, 2006 Are you kidding me? Everyone was touting how he was going to be unstoppable and that Houston made the biggest mistake in NFL drafting history by not drafting him. In 2005 at USC, Bush averaged 15 carries a game. Anyone who thought he was suddenly going to transform into a 25-30 carry classic NFL workhorse tailback wasn't paying attention. He's still averaging more than 70 yards rushing and receiving a game and 4.5 yards every time he touches the ball not including returns. He's only averaging 10 rushes a game. Not setting the world on fire, but not shabby for a rookie on a team no one expected to do much this year. The jury's still out as to whether Houston made a mistake not drafting him. Given the Texans RB situation, having Bush couldn't have hurt. So to the original question, is he a bust? If you mean bust as an NFL player? I bet the Saints would say no. As a fantasy player? If you're expectations were unrealistically high, probably so. Sorry if you drank the Kool-Aid. I drafted him as my third RB and get points for receiving yards. Considering the other third RBs out there, I'm not displeased. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azazello1313 Posted November 2, 2006 Share Posted November 2, 2006 (edited) This is the point. Defenses have to account for him and that explains a lot of both Deuce's and Brees' success this season. They line him up all over the field, shift him, send him in motion, do a lot of things that don't show up on the stat sheet. Bush is an uber-stud RB because NO doesn't give him the ball to carry in great numbers, and those pesky stats that show he is just a mediocre ball carrier are just a diversion that encourages other teams to dedicate the predominance of their defensive efforts to not stopping. Got it. I don't recall anyone calling him an uber-stud Funny. I distinctly remember before Bush actually started playing in the NFL that he was being forecast as the next great RB to come into the pros. The best in the past 20 years or longer, if I remember correctly. Given the RBs that we've seen play in the pros in the past 20 years, I'd say that uber-stud RB would be applicable. nice tactic. someone says he's having an impact beyond the stats, you sarcastically translate that as calling him an "uber-stud", he says "i didn't say that makes him an uber-stud", then you come back arguing against your own stupid "uber-stud" strawman. what a jackass. Edited November 2, 2006 by Azazello1313 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Irish Doggy Posted November 2, 2006 Share Posted November 2, 2006 He's the most exciting RB in the league. A dynamic player.... Women want him and men want to be him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Score 1 Posted November 2, 2006 Share Posted November 2, 2006 This is just BS from BB. Don't lump me in with BB's Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bronco Billy Posted November 2, 2006 Author Share Posted November 2, 2006 nice tactic. someone says he's having an impact beyond the stats, you sarcastically translate that as calling him an "uber-stud", he says "i didn't say that makes him an uber-stud", then you come back arguing against your own stupid "uber-stud" strawman. what a jackass. Well, you're either disingenuous (as usual), have a memory that is capable of only holding a couple of months of data, or lived in a cave last April, and then add your pompousness that includes name calling, and I can see you haven't learned a thing in the past few years. Here's a few opinions about Bush around the draft. I don't have the inclination to provide more data than this for someone like you, even though there are loads of similar examples: Vic Carucci, nfl.com, April 29, 2006 Bush is a dynamic presence, the likes of which come along only once per decade… I have talked to numerous people who are paid to evaluate college prospects for NFL teams. All of them pegged Bush not only as the best this draft had to offer, but the best that many drafts in recent years have had to offer… I heard plenty of comparisons between Bush and running backs such as Gale Sayers and Marshall Faulk. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- scouting report, nfl.com Bush is a player that everyone has been screaming about all season, and it's clear that he is an elite talent. Bush is a remarkable athlete with the vision and instincts to take advantage of his athleticism. Once he sees the hole, he has shown the ability to stick a foot in the ground and can explode off his cut and through the hole in a flash. He gets behind the defense very fast and has the playing speed to outrun the angles to take plays the distance. He is a dangerous receiver out of the backfield and consistently has shown the ability to make great catches and then makes big plays running in the open field. He runs tougher than you expect between the tackles. He Will lower his shoulder and deliver a blow to the tackler. He is a very dangerous returner whose quickness, elusiveness and playing speed make him a touchdown threat on every return. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Scouting report, fox sports Bush is about as complete a football player as you can find among the 2006 draft crop. He has exceptional speed and explosiveness. His return skills are an added bonus, but it is his burst, balance and field vision that will have him replacing Marshall Faulk as the next great pro back who needs to be accounted for in any role he performs in; whether running, catching, returning or throwing the football. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uggabugga Posted November 2, 2006 Share Posted November 2, 2006 scouting report, nfl.com Bush is a player that everyone has been screaming about all season, and it's clear that he is an elite talent. Bush is a remarkable athlete with the vision and instincts to take advantage of his athleticism. Once he sees the hole, he has shown the ability to stick a foot in the ground and can explode off his cut and through the hole in a flash. He gets behind the defense very fast and has the playing speed to outrun the angles to take plays the distance. He is a dangerous receiver out of the backfield and consistently has shown the ability to make great catches and then makes big plays running in the open field. He runs tougher than you expect between the tackles. He Will lower his shoulder and deliver a blow to the tackler. He is a very dangerous returner whose quickness, elusiveness and playing speed make him a touchdown threat on every return. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Scouting report, fox sports Bush is about as complete a football player as you can find among the 2006 draft crop. He has exceptional speed and explosiveness. His return skills are an added bonus, but it is his burst, balance and field vision that will have him replacing Marshall Faulk as the next great pro back who needs to be accounted for in any role he performs in; whether running, catching, returning or throwing the football. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ I think all of that is still applicable, though it will take some time, probably years, to know if it's really true. Marshall Faulk spent several years in the league before he became the player we like to remember. I still maintain that anyone who calls him a bust at this point in time had unreasonably high expectations going in to the season, regardless of who planted the seeds for those expectations. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azazello1313 Posted November 2, 2006 Share Posted November 2, 2006 Well, you're either disingenuous (as usual), have a memory that is capable of only holding a couple of months of data, or lived in a cave last April, and then add your pompousness that includes name calling, and I can see you haven't learned a thing in the past few years. Here's a few opinions about Bush around the draft. I don't have the inclination to provide more data than this for someone like you, even though there are loads of similar examples: god you're dense. ok tell me what ANY of that has to do with whether or not he's having an impact beyond the stats (the argument you were taking issue with). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sharpie Posted November 2, 2006 Share Posted November 2, 2006 BB - While I think it is early to consider him a bust you make some solid points. I too think, given his lofty status, he can be considered a bust of sorts(for now). He was touted as being the best player to come along in years and a can't miss player. Given that, he should be producing more than he is. However he is #4 among all RBs in receiving yardage and #1 in receptions, which should be worth something. He is producing about as much as I thought he would...which is why someone drafted him long before I had a chance in every league I'm in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaP'N GRuNGe Posted November 2, 2006 Share Posted November 2, 2006 All Bush needs is a nice new pair of Ponys and he'll rip up the league. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riffraff Posted November 2, 2006 Share Posted November 2, 2006 Bush causes mismatches in the secondary. He does help NO win games this year by the respect he's given. That said, next year the NFL will have film on him and will spot trends in his tendencies and the plays that use him as decoys. The "out of position" players do make a difference, but not normally long term (years). Can't blame the offensive line for poor blocking when he runs. He was a guy that was drafted because he could evade capture with his moves, speed, and innovation. Seems to be more like Eric Bienemy than he is to LaDainian Tomlinson. Sorry for the Chargers' reference, but look at Bienemy's college and pro careers: University of Colorado He was heavily recruited out of high school and chose the University of Colorado. Bieniemy's footprints are all over the CU record book, as he remains the school's all-time leader in rushing (3,940 yards), all-purpose yards (4,351), touchdowns (42) and scoring (254 points). He was the nation's second leading rusher in 1990 with 1,628 yards, along with 17 touchdowns, when he finished third in the Heisman Trophy balloting that year behind BYU's Ty Detmer (the winner) and Notre Dame's Raghib Ismail. In 1990, he earned unanimous All-America honors. He was a two-time first-team all Big-Eight performer, in 1988 and in 1990, earning the conference's offensive player-of-the-year honor as a senior. As a junior, he was named to CU's prestigious 25-member "All-Century Football Team," the only active player at the time to be selected to the group honoring the first 100 years of Colorado Buffalo football. NFL Bienemy's success in college did not translate into the professional ranks. He played from 1991 til 1999, finishing his career with 1589 yards rushing, 1223 yards receiving, 276 yards returning punts, 1,621 yards on kickoff returns, and 12 touchdowns (11 receiving and 1 kickoff return) while paying for the San Diego Chargers, Cincinnati Bengals and Philadelphia Eagles. ...... Bush better learn to run the ball as an NFL RB by next year. Otherwise he'll just be that gimmicky guy that teams will soon ignore when they see the trends. And by gimmicky, I mean he's playing outside his position, not that he's a freak of nature. Tough to find gimmick players in the Hall of Fame. The freaks of nature endure though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bronco Billy Posted November 2, 2006 Author Share Posted November 2, 2006 Seems to be more like Eric Bienemy than he is to LaDainian Tomlinson. Ouch. Even I wasn't prepared to go quite that far (yet). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bronco Billy Posted November 2, 2006 Author Share Posted November 2, 2006 god you're dense. ok tell me what ANY of that has to do with whether or not he's having an impact beyond the stats (the argument you were taking issue with). I'll tell you what. Since you seem to support the argument that he is creating for other players beyond his stats, why don't you prove that for me? Show me that other players' stats are down when he's not in the game and that they go up when he is in the game. I'll wait... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rockerbraves Posted November 2, 2006 Share Posted November 2, 2006 Ouch. Even I wasn't prepared to go quite that far (yet). Maybe more like a Terry Metcalf who played with the St. Louis Cardinals Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azazello1313 Posted November 2, 2006 Share Posted November 2, 2006 (edited) Bush causes mismatches in the secondary. He does help NO win games this year by the respect he's given. That said, next year the NFL will have film on him and will spot trends in his tendencies and the plays that use him as decoys. The "out of position" players do make a difference, but not normally long term (years). Can't blame the offensive line for poor blocking when he runs. He was a guy that was drafted because he could evade capture with his moves, speed, and innovation. Seems to be more like Eric Bienemy than he is to LaDainian Tomlinson. Sorry for the Chargers' reference, but look at Bienemy's college and pro careers: University of Colorado He was heavily recruited out of high school and chose the University of Colorado. Bieniemy's footprints are all over the CU record book, as he remains the school's all-time leader in rushing (3,940 yards), all-purpose yards (4,351), touchdowns (42) and scoring (254 points). He was the nation's second leading rusher in 1990 with 1,628 yards, along with 17 touchdowns, when he finished third in the Heisman Trophy balloting that year behind BYU's Ty Detmer (the winner) and Notre Dame's Raghib Ismail. In 1990, he earned unanimous All-America honors. He was a two-time first-team all Big-Eight performer, in 1988 and in 1990, earning the conference's offensive player-of-the-year honor as a senior. As a junior, he was named to CU's prestigious 25-member "All-Century Football Team," the only active player at the time to be selected to the group honoring the first 100 years of Colorado Buffalo football. NFL Bienemy's success in college did not translate into the professional ranks. He played from 1991 til 1999, finishing his career with 1589 yards rushing, 1223 yards receiving, 276 yards returning punts, 1,621 yards on kickoff returns, and 12 touchdowns (11 receiving and 1 kickoff return) while paying for the San Diego Chargers, Cincinnati Bengals and Philadelphia Eagles. ...... Bush better learn to run the ball as an NFL RB by next year. Otherwise he'll just be that gimmicky guy that teams will soon ignore when they see the trends. And by gimmicky, I mean he's playing outside his position, not that he's a freak of nature. Tough to find gimmick players in the Hall of Fame. The freaks of nature endure though. bienemy wasn't a gimmick player. he was a typical, every down RB who failed as such in the NFL mostly because he couldn't hold on to the ball. he has real tiny hands. seriously. i don't really see a valid comparison to bush there . Edited November 2, 2006 by Azazello1313 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azazello1313 Posted November 2, 2006 Share Posted November 2, 2006 Maybe more like a Terry Metcalf who played with the St. Louis Cardinals or his son eric metcalf. those comparisons are better than bienemy, but i still think bush will have a bigger impact than that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riffraff Posted November 3, 2006 Share Posted November 3, 2006 At least peeps are thinking of more suitable comparisons. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chavez Posted November 3, 2006 Share Posted November 3, 2006 It appears the answer to the question the thread title posed is "no." I doubt anyone who drafted him expecting tremendous ff impact is happy at this point in time. Still he has only half-a-season under his belt - I pegged him as probably being a Westbrook-type back - and I'd say that a Westy-type requires a bit longer adjustment period to the NFL than your standard "franchise" RB. One thing that certainly hurts the Bush brigade is that McAllister is doing FAR better than he is in the YPC department - despite splitting carries. Any argument about Bush in RBBC falls flat, since McAllister is doing QUITE well in the same RBBC. Their split is about 14 carries for Deuce, 10 for Reggie. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caveman_Nick Posted November 3, 2006 Share Posted November 3, 2006 why don't you look up atlanta's record when vick is out of the lineup. Why is it that nobody ever buys this, and blames the difference on coincidence? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LooGie Posted November 3, 2006 Share Posted November 3, 2006 This reeks of a fishing expedition, but I'll bite. I agree the comparison to Priest Holmes might not be the most relevant, but I think a comparison to Kevin Jones is. Both are similar backs though Bush is a bit smaller. Here are the stats from Jones first seven games: 15 rushes for 36 yds 12 rushes for 57 yds 4 rushes for 8 yds 2 rushes for 5 yds 13 rushes for 65 yds 11 rushes for 36 yds 12 rushes for 20 yds Based on this, you could've drawn the same conclusion that Jones was destined to be a bust. However, he figured out you need to be patient in the NFL and wait for the holes to develop. He ended the season with 1100+ yards and a 4.7 ypc average. He's having a great 2006, as well. good post Bush is not a bust (fantasy wise, yah, but if you drafted him higher than 6 or 7, you asked for it anyway) and Duece has proven it. with Bush on the field, the defense continues to respect him and account for him. And Duece has been capitalizing on it. I dont think Duece's #'s would be as good w/o Bush on the field. Therefore, he's a hugh asset to NO right now, and thus, worth his weight in gold. Plus, defenses have not been willing to give him the corner so he can run the way he's famous for. Not that that's a good enough excuse. for as high as he was taken, he needs to create opportunities (like he did on that punt return). I'm sur he'll come around Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CD6405 Posted November 3, 2006 Share Posted November 3, 2006 Tom Brady Beats Peyton Manning this weekend by himself, Dwight Freeney will watch and like it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azazello1313 Posted November 3, 2006 Share Posted November 3, 2006 (edited) Why is it that nobody ever buys this, and blames the difference on coincidence? i think the theory must be that the falcons are so darned TIRED from carrying vick on their backs when he is in there that they play badly and lose when he's not. Edited November 3, 2006 by Azazello1313 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jjpro11 Posted November 3, 2006 Share Posted November 3, 2006 give him some time to put on a few pounds and he will get better.. a guy similar to him in speed and agility is willie parker.. parker purposely put on about 10 pounds over the offseason. last year he would go down on first contact. now he is stiff arming defenders straight to the ground down and running through guys. he still has his speed and now he has strength. i expect bush will do the same and become a more complete back. keep in mind he should only be a senior in college... plenty of time to grow as a back. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
policyvote Posted November 3, 2006 Share Posted November 3, 2006 My first response is: What HC in his right mind would give a RB who has shown as little as Bush a featured RB position, especially when he has a successful RB like McAllister already carrying the load. So, how long would you be willing to wait? A year? Two years? Longer? Given Bush's skill set & the way it fits into the NFL, he may never be a featured RB. Damn, I distinctly remember myself telling everyone I knew this same thing about a year ago. Peace policy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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