buddahj Posted February 4, 2011 Share Posted February 4, 2011 First of all it shouldn't matter if the older guy can collect unemployment or SS. You are not in the business of being nice, or being a humanitarian. You are in business to get the job done. Still if you want to think nice thoughts the older guy can also get medicare. I see you have two choices. A. You keep the younger guy. He knows what the older guy does, and he can do it, though he isn't as proficient at this point. He can grow into it. Additionally he can back you up which to me would seem like a good thing. More than likely the younger guy's salary is lower due to him not being with the company as long, so you'd probably be saving your company money which your boss will probably like. Additionally it sounds like the younger guy has a broader range, which would help since you now have two people doing what three used to do. B. Keep the older guy. This might be a little easier on you for the first two years, but then again it might not, because it sounds like while he is very good at his narrow job description he is rather limited. Additionally in two years he will retire, so then you have to train someone that doesn't know a thing about how y'all do things. This is really a no brainer from a business standpoint. You have to keep the younger guy. Sure the mushy feely people here will say keep the old guy because he may not be able to get hired elsewhere, but you manage a part of a business, not a charity. I agree with Perch on this one. The younger guy appears to have a higher ceiling. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bushwacked Posted February 4, 2011 Share Posted February 4, 2011 Hire a 18 year old hawt chick. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rovers Posted February 4, 2011 Share Posted February 4, 2011 Let me be more direct. What if the younger guy does NOT want to get switched out of IT and leaves? He may get very PO'd about having his job responsabilities changed into something he may find boring and career limiting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bier Meister Posted February 4, 2011 Share Posted February 4, 2011 Keep your tenured guy...30 yr. old IT guys are plentiful and in 2 years when your guy retires you should be able to find a replacement easy enough. this...not time to get aaron rodgers yet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wiegie Posted February 4, 2011 Share Posted February 4, 2011 Door number 3. The bottom line is the only thing that counts in business. There are millions out there that can take the place of the most expensive employee and usually within a short time be able to do an acceptable job. You can't let any kind of emotions get in the way of what is best for the company. If that means firing a long time employee with a wife and three sick kids on Christmas Eve...then so be it. That is just the way it is. American businesses are built on that foundation. Employees need to be replaced from time to time to keep the business fresh and cost effective. Firing high priced employees is a fine American tradition. I am sure that Perch agrees wholeheartedly. And many other business owners too. It is like something out of a Dickens' novel, isn't it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skylive5 Posted February 4, 2011 Share Posted February 4, 2011 It is like something out of a Dickens' novel, isn't it? I have to say with all hope and prayer....that the old guy gets to keep his job and the new guy gets the boot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theprofessor Posted February 4, 2011 Share Posted February 4, 2011 I agree with Perch on this one and have been in a similar situation myself, although there wasn't such a huge age variance. You keep the 30 year old. It's never easy to fire someone but who knows, it might be a blessing to the older one as he will be able to spend his later years enjoying his family and retirement. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Puddy Posted February 4, 2011 Share Posted February 4, 2011 I was the first on my team to get my PMP certification. Matt the master pimp. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trojanmojo Posted February 4, 2011 Share Posted February 4, 2011 Keep the tenured guy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G.K.Trey Posted February 4, 2011 Share Posted February 4, 2011 Truer words were never spoken. I've seen countless layoffs over the past 9 years at my company. Almost every time, I thought to myself, "good start, but we have some more dead wood that could go too". I saw a lot of my coworkers whining about how unfair it was. I saw morale suffer and people not care about the quality of their work. They acted like the company owed them something. We just had another round of layoffs in December, a lot of them. We are outsourcing a big chunk of our operation to eastern Europe. My team right now is about 1/8th the size it was in 2002, and this time next year, the rest of the Atlanta people will be gone and our payroll will be a fraction of what it was. Our customers will not get nearly the service they get now, but nobody cares. Everything is driven by price. I'm safe because I've made myself valuable. I moved away from the work that is being sent overseas. I was the first on my team to get my PMP certification. I have customers all over the world, and I get up at 3AM or go to bed at 3AM if need be. I look at my job through my manager's eyes, and my customers' eyes and anticipate their needs. I solve problems as quickly as possible. I know how to get from point A to point B with a minimum of BS in between. It's not difficult to me, but it must be a special skill because very often I have to wade through so much ancillary crap to get to the problem. I'm immensely proud of the work I do, and immensely grateful for my salary and benefits, when so many people are out there suffering. My company gets 200% from me and they know it. it is not possible , by definition, to give more than 100% Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cre8tiff Posted February 4, 2011 Share Posted February 4, 2011 it is not possible , by definition, to give more than 100% BJ, is that you? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caveman_Nick Posted February 4, 2011 Author Share Posted February 4, 2011 Any reference to the older employee's age would make firing him illegal, of course. Once he passed 40, he entered a protected class. If you do decide to let him go, there will need to be nailed down reasons based on role redistribution, etc. Saying "well, he can get Medicare" will potentially cost a fortune in court. Of course. If I have to let someone go, it will be as simple as "We lost some business and everyone has to make cutbacks. I am sorry." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kid Cid Posted February 4, 2011 Share Posted February 4, 2011 Nothing matters except money. You always fire the guy making the most money. Nothing else needs to be taken into consideration. Loyalty, tenure, job knowledge, none of that counts compared to saving your company a couple of bucks. The bottom line is all that matters. This is so sad and ultimately...so true. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big John Posted February 4, 2011 Share Posted February 4, 2011 BJ, is that you? nope. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
borge007 Posted February 4, 2011 Share Posted February 4, 2011 Of course. If I have to let someone go, it will be as simple as "We lost some business and everyone has to make cutbacks. I am sorry." Do either of the employees know there is a cut coming? Just askiin. If so, maybe one would willingly leave , which would make the decision much easier! Just sayin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caveman_Nick Posted February 4, 2011 Author Share Posted February 4, 2011 Do either of the employees know there is a cut coming? Just askiin. If so, maybe one would willingly leave , which would make the decision much easier! Just sayin No. A cut is not imminent at this point. This scenario is highly unlikely, though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shaman Posted February 4, 2011 Share Posted February 4, 2011 Couple of things, How committed is the younger guy to staying with the company? He already left one company because things got tough, chances are that if things get tough with you guys (Which looks like they are since you are cutting one of them) he will likely flee again. Having the old-timer will pretty much guarantee you'll have him for the next 2 years. After a year you need to look for a replacement and talk to him so that he can maybe stay a bit longer to mentor your new employee. He doesn't need to do full time but enough to pave the way for your new employee. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoJoTheWebToedBoy Posted February 4, 2011 Share Posted February 4, 2011 Their finanical status, personal status, throw all of that out the window. They should even be part of the decision making process. This should boil down to what is best for the company going forward. Who is the better performer, who has the most up-side, and if they were both gone tomorrow, what would you do. Shouldn't be about age, health care, retirement, etc.... Sucks to let people go for no fault of their own.... But that's the way it goes sometimes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apocalypse Posted February 4, 2011 Share Posted February 4, 2011 A couple points: Does a 30-something still doing desktop support really have that much upside? I wouldn't consider potential longevity because longevity is a rare thing in business, particularly in IT and with younger employees. Laying off the long-term employee is going to a pretty strong message to the remaining employee (and everyone else) that longevity isn't valued. I'd be very nervous about firing an older employee in this situation in your area, whether he has an acutal case or not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimC Posted February 4, 2011 Share Posted February 4, 2011 [TimC] In Star Trek TNG Season 7, Episode 16 titled Thine Own Self; Counselor Troi is taking the bridge officer's test in order to try to become a Commander. The lesson she needed to learn that Ricker finally conveyed was that a Commander's first duty is to the ship. Eventually she passed the test after she ordered a hologram LaForge to his death in order to save the ship. [/TimC] The better example is Star Trek TOS Season 2, Episode 11 titled "The Deadly Years" where the away team discovers a colony where the scientists have aged rapidly and are dying. Kirk, Spock, Scotty, McCoy realize upon beaming back to the Enterprise that they also have the same disease and are doomed to die of old age soon. The only one not affected by the aging process was Chekov because he found one of the scientists already dead and was shocked by his discovery. McCoy frantically searched on why he was unaffected and just in the nick of time, discovered he was a Commie Russian that couldn't say the letter v. Oh, and it was also the fact that, because he was startled by the dead body, his body produced a high amount of adrenaline. McCoy injected the rest of the away team with the adrenaline and saved them just in time before dying of old age and/or becoming completely worthless by sucking the Medicare and Social Security system dry. I guess the question is if he can inject the old f'er with some adrenaline and get a few more useful years out of him? Or just kill him like the used-up old person he is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SEC=UGA Posted February 4, 2011 Share Posted February 4, 2011 Jesus, we're still talking about this... Just fire someone already, hell the unemployment rate has dropped to 9%, whoever you fire will be fine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azazello1313 Posted February 4, 2011 Share Posted February 4, 2011 without reading all the replies...I say keep the older guy. he's more valuable now, and that's really all that matters. too many variables to talk about what the younger guy *might* be down the line. and frankly, if he's just now becoming useful after 9 months with your company, I'd question how high his ceiling really is. the way you describe him he actually sounds like a bit of a dud. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twiley Posted February 4, 2011 Share Posted February 4, 2011 Haven't had a chance to read through everything but I'd keep the young guy, no question about it. Older guy retires in 2 years and you're back to square one looking for someone to hire that you'll have to train completely from the ground up. Keep the younger guy and the learning curve isn't that great. Really seems like a no-brainer, then again it's never easy to fire someone. Had some people cry but business is business. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caveman_Nick Posted February 4, 2011 Author Share Posted February 4, 2011 then again it's never easy to fire someone. Had some people cry but business is business. This I don't completely agree with. I've had to fire some people for cause, and that was very easy. If someone is directly responsible for a significant financial problem, loss of a customer or damage to the relationship between my company and a customer, I have no issue wielding the axe. Whatever your problems are in life, perhaps you should have taken them into account before you conducted yourself in that fashion. It's not easy to lay off someone that does a good job, pretty much whatever you ask of them, and was not any part of the situation that's causing the layoffs. Especially while those that are part of the picture are skating along with their jobs. Still no decree, so perhaps my dept. will survive the axing unscathed. Knocking on wood now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twiley Posted February 4, 2011 Share Posted February 4, 2011 This I don't completely agree with. I've had to fire some people for cause, and that was very easy. If someone is directly responsible for a significant financial problem, loss of a customer or damage to the relationship between my company and a customer, I have no issue wielding the axe. Whatever your problems are in life, perhaps you should have taken them into account before you conducted yourself in that fashion. It's not easy to lay off someone that does a good job, pretty much whatever you ask of them, and was not any part of the situation that's causing the layoffs. Especially while those that are part of the picture are skating along with their jobs. Still no decree, so perhaps my dept. will survive the axing unscathed. Knocking on wood now. I should have worded that better - it's never easy to lay off someone. I have no problem firing idiots - I've actually enjoyed it at times. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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