Kid Cid Posted July 30, 2009 Share Posted July 30, 2009 Throw some flour on him. Not much jiggly on Mike. Maybe you should just paint arrows to tell you where to go. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westvirginia Posted July 30, 2009 Share Posted July 30, 2009 How could you not adore a man like this?? My nipples could cut glass right now... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Square Posted July 30, 2009 Author Share Posted July 30, 2009 I really think many folks in here are jumping to the conclusion that Square's wife went to this guy to console her over the miscarriage. While this may be the case, It didn't sound that way to me at all. It sounded to me like he asked her if there was another guy in her life and she said 'yes'. I didn't hear any qualifiers about someone she turned to after the loss of the baby. That's kind of where my head is at right now. I don't think it's the consoling of the loss as much as possibly the crazy hormones that might have made something small into a serious rift in her mind. Thus, allowing friendship feelings to develop into more with dr. Mcd-baggie. If she refuses to discuss it with you, I am kind of on the same page as Tonorator. Healing can't really begin until the wounding is complete. If she's not willing to at least lay the cards on the table as to where things stand and how they got there, then I think she should come back when she thinks she can, and in the interim it might be best if she were elsewhere. There is a part of me that really agreed with Tonorator's post. It's very academic when it's not your situation but I could see myself answering someone else's problem in a similar fashion. I have my appointment this afternoon so I'll get (hopefully) a little more perspective soon. My head feels a little more clear over the last day or two. At least less crazy thoughts running through. It's getting to a point where there are only a few ways to go. I've got to prepare for the different outcomes but at some point it is either going to get better or get done with. I love my daughter but I can't stay in something if the other person isn't willing to work on our relationship. My guess at why Mrs. Square won't go is that she will have to accept her failure and take responsibility, which will be very painful for her emotionally. Hmm... A woman that doesn't want to be responsible for her mistakes. Maybe you have met my wife. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaxfactor Posted July 30, 2009 Share Posted July 30, 2009 (edited) How could you not adore a man like this?? :heart:.....:blush: is this bizarro world? she's having a freakin' affair. playful banter is not on my list of possible responses. Didn't seem like she was having an affair to me....yet. Perhaps you should take your club, bash her over the head, then drag her by the hair to the bedroom. Maybe that saves the marriage. If I get to go to Vegas for WCOFF, I'm gonna get him good and licquored up and we going through the drive-thru chapel and Elvis is gonna marry us. Can't wait! But you have to wear a Captain Kirk outfit. Better yet, pointed ears. Meloves pointed ears. And what's with the IF I GET TO GO TO VEGAS? Not much jiggly on Mike. Maybe you should just paint arrows to tell you where to go. Who's Mike? Edited July 30, 2009 by jaxfactor Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paulzale Posted July 30, 2009 Share Posted July 30, 2009 (edited) Hmm... A woman that doesn't want to be responsible for her mistakes. Maybe you have met my wife. They are all the same to some degree (just generalizing!) Good luck I'm pulling for you. Edited July 30, 2009 by paulzale Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonorator Posted July 30, 2009 Share Posted July 30, 2009 Didn't seem like she was having an affair to me....yet. Perhaps you should take your club, bash her over the head, then drag her by the hair to the bedroom. Maybe that saves the marriage. no man, not saying that. i am saying that i can't see handling her with kid gloves, however. i don't know if it's a full booty-slap affair but she is admitting to something being there with another man. admitting that and then saying that she needs space to work that out doesn't cut it for me. nor does coming on with the tender approach so that hopefully the delicate flower will open up. that's done in the dating stage. we are in the family stage with the welfare of an innocent child in the wings. there has to be something to the commitment made here and any partner in a marriage deserves full and open communication on something this big. i fear since she's not giving that, she's checked out already or maybe she's waiting to see if dr. love leaves his wife. either way, as the husband, i don't sit around and wait to hear if i'm wanted in my marriage and i don't go to a counselor alone to help me figure out if or why i may not still be wanted in my marriage. it is that academic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thews40 Posted July 30, 2009 Share Posted July 30, 2009 Again 2 cents, cause I already think you blew it somewhat by telling her you were seeking a counselor instead of just doing it. Seeking a counselor is the right thing to do, and you’re making a wise choice going by yourself IMO. This takes the keys away from her, which I believe she has the one up right now, basically holding the “I don’t know what I want” hook on a string. Sorry, you (she) already made the promise. Sorry, we have a child’s future in the balance, and we owe it to our child to at least discuss this. If you won’t go (her), I’ll go, because I made a promise and I intend to do what it takes for the sake of my child to see if it can be saved. The pleasure principle comes into play here bigtime, and if you think this is a “game” you are 100% correct. This isntsomuch a “game,” but rather a game plan. I’m sorry your wife had the miscarriage and this all may be caused by it, but if it’s used as an excuse, then it sort of justifies her actions, instead of just owning them. Back to the pleasure principle… If one person in a relationship has a self-perceived superiority, it places them as the “one up” in their logic. If they perceive themselves as the vulnerable one, then it places their partner as the “one up.” Healthy relationships have an equal partnership, where each person chooses to be with the other, as neither have a one up. IMO, she is placing you as the one down. Telling you she doesn’t know what she wants, implying she’s the one calling the shots. Now on to Og… Inside you is the Og caveman and she is the cavewoman. She wants things for reasons she doesn’t understand, just like Og wants things he doesn’t understand the reasons behind. She’s looking for strength in a man, and you can’t be the strong one if she considers herself as the one up. This isn’t a choice IMO by the way, but what she says she wants (I don’t know) may really be telling you she doesn’t want to tell you what she wants, but rather wants you to figure it out. That way, you’ll be sure to meet her needs, whatever they are. My advice is to make the decision and go (which you did), but don't be too eager to tell her all about it. Ok, so admitting I’m no expert on sustained relationships (I actually laughed when I wrote that down), I was happily married for 10 years in a 17 year relationship which ended when I was 30. I had no idea she was unhappy, and my kids were very young (4 and 5) when she left. The reasons behind this were her turning 30 IMO. At 30, there’s still time to change your life if you want to. The moral of the story, is that if she’s decided she wants to take a new direction and it doesn’t include you, there isn’t squat you can do about by kissing her behind. You may have taken her for granted? You may have failed to understand things because Og isn’t really keen on figuring out things he was supposed to inherently know. OK, you're human and humans make mistakes. The point is, you have child and talking about the real issues is the only way they’ll be solved. You need to be Og right now. Take charge, like you’re doing, but don’t tell her everything. If she asks, then tell her, but don’t give her control. It’s a sticky thing and easier when looked back in retrospect, but if your commitment is to the welfare of your child and you seek a counselor because it makes the most sense, whether or not this works out is a decision I can’t understand how you could regret, even if it doesn’t work. Good luck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azazello1313 Posted July 30, 2009 Share Posted July 30, 2009 (edited) no man, not saying that. i am saying that i can't see handling her with kid gloves, however. i don't know if it's a full booty-slap affair but she is admitting to something being there with another man. admitting that and then saying that she needs space to work that out doesn't cut it for me. nor does coming on with the tender approach so that hopefully the delicate flower will open up. that's done in the dating stage. we are in the family stage with the welfare of an innocent child in the wings. there has to be something to the commitment made here and any partner in a marriage deserves full and open communication on something this big. i fear since she's not giving that, she's checked out already or maybe she's waiting to see if dr. love leaves his wife. either way, as the husband, i don't sit around and wait to hear if i'm wanted in my marriage and i don't go to a counselor alone to help me figure out if or why i may not still be wanted in my marriage. it is that academic. in the first post, square said that she told him 1) she wants to fix the marriage, and 2) she was going to stop talking to dr. d-bag. I think he kind of has to take her at her word on those two things for the time being, despite some troubling signs as to whether she actually means it. but I agree with you, she absolutely does NOT get to say "there's another man", and then not have to answer for it. there must be some exploration of what happened, when, why, before anything else can happen IMO. she probably realizes that, and it's a big reason why she's avoiding. maybe that means she'd rather check out that deal with it, or maybe it just means it makes her feel like schit so she wants to push it away. I don't think it behooves square to be confrontational about it just yet. Edited July 30, 2009 by Azazello1313 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonorator Posted July 30, 2009 Share Posted July 30, 2009 in the first post, square said that she told him 1) she wants to fix the marriage, and 2) she was going to stop talking to dr. d-bag. I think he kind of has to take her at her word on those two things for the time being, despite some troubling signs that she actually means it. but I agree with you, she absolutely does NOT get to say "there's another man", and then not have to answer for it. there must be some exploration of what happened, when, why, before anything else can happen IMO. she probably realizes that, and it's a big reason why she's avoiding. maybe that means she'd rather check out that deal with it, or maybe it just means it makes her feel like schit so she wants to push it away. I don't think it behooves square to be confrontational about it just yet. in the posts after that first one it seems clear that the dude doesn't know all that is happening with this guy. she told him that she agreed with dr. love that they would both tell their spouses that something was going on. you don't reach that step by just having a few-support-a-friend discussions. she's told square that she and the doc have many common interests. square has admitted not knowing 100% that she is no longer involved with this guy. she has said that she wants to fall back in love, but has come back since and isn't talking at all and has admitted that she doesn't know what she wants. then refuses counseling. maybe it's just me, but i get confrontational at this point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perchoutofwater Posted July 30, 2009 Share Posted July 30, 2009 in the posts after that first one it seems clear that the dude doesn't know all that is happening with this guy. she told him that she agreed with dr. love that they would both tell their spouses that something was going on. you don't reach that step by just having a few-support-a-friend discussions. she's told square that she and the doc have many common interests. square has admitted not knowing 100% that she is no longer involved with this guy. she has said that she wants to fall back in love, but has come back since and isn't talking at all and has admitted that she doesn't know what she wants. then refuses counseling. maybe it's just me, but i get confrontational at this point. At this point my first appointment would be with an divorce attorney, not a counselor. Don't get me wrong, I'd be hoping and praying I didn't need the attorney, but I'm one of those prepare for the worst hope for the best type of guys. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yo mama Posted July 30, 2009 Share Posted July 30, 2009 At this point my first appointment would be with an divorce attorney, not a counselor. Don't get me wrong, I'd be hoping and praying I didn't need the attorney, but I'm one of those prepare for the worst hope for the best type of guys. Perch, recommending that someone see an attorney? You must feel dirty all over. Soooo dirty. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caveman_Nick Posted July 30, 2009 Share Posted July 30, 2009 maybe it's just me, but i get confrontational at this point. In general I am on Square's side here, but let's also not forget that his first foray into 'confrontational' was the ever so eloquent "I hope you die", or something like that. I think Square has some culpability with respect to the current state of things because of that remark. As I said in my first post, be very careful what you say and how you say it. Things can certainly come back to bite you if you put the wrong message out there. I would start my discussion with an apology that expressed that I didn't mean anything I said in anger and that I recognized that I reacted poorly in the first place. I would try not to do it again. If I were the wife and I had gotten Square's initial reaction, I'd be hesitant about opening up the discussion a second time myself. I think that has to me rectified in order to move forward. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caveman_Nick Posted July 30, 2009 Share Posted July 30, 2009 Perch, recommending that someone see an attorney? You must feel dirty all over. Soooo dirty. like a 20 year old chick with a tongue ring and a tramp stamp. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paulzale Posted July 30, 2009 Share Posted July 30, 2009 At this point my first appointment would be with an divorce attorney, not a counselor. Don't get me wrong, I'd be hoping and praying I didn't need the attorney, but I'm one of those prepare for the worst hope for the best type of guys. even though I have written a bunch about counseling and all, I would also be doing as Perch says!!! Cover your bases man! In general this puts you in the power position and you are controlling the situation to the best of your ability. Also, don't tell her about this until it is obvious that the marriage is dissolved, and then only after your lawyer tells you to do so. New house, bigger family, 30 some years old, all are possibly "points of no return" for her right now and could make her question what she wants out of life. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geeteebee Posted July 30, 2009 Share Posted July 30, 2009 Have you considered putting your thoughts down on paper and writing her a letter? She may not want to talk about what's going on but if you give here a letter and tell her that you want her to read what is going on in your head then she may decide to open up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caveman_Nick Posted July 30, 2009 Share Posted July 30, 2009 Have you considered putting your thoughts down on paper and writing her a letter? She may not want to talk about what's going on but if you give here a letter and tell her that you want her to read what is going on in your head then she may decide to open up. Man...I seriously think this is a big mistake unless you are a very skilled writer. A letter is something a divorce attorney could have a field day with. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonorator Posted July 30, 2009 Share Posted July 30, 2009 In general I am on Square's side here, but let's also not forget that his first foray into 'confrontational' was the ever so eloquent "I hope you die", or something like that. c'mon, that can be taken in many different ways ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Double Agent Posted July 30, 2009 Share Posted July 30, 2009 Man...I seriously think this is a big mistake unless you are a very skilled writer. A letter is something a divorce attorney could have a field day with. Good point. Be on the safe side and email it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh 0ne Posted July 30, 2009 Share Posted July 30, 2009 c'mon, that can be taken in many different ways ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whomper Posted July 30, 2009 Share Posted July 30, 2009 In general I am on Square's side here, but let's also not forget that his first foray into 'confrontational' was the ever so eloquent "I hope you die", or something like that. c'mon, that can be taken in many different ways ... Thats some good stuff right there gentlemen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
polksalet Posted July 30, 2009 Share Posted July 30, 2009 I didn't say he should skull drag them both. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
untateve Posted July 30, 2009 Share Posted July 30, 2009 Well, I made an appointment tomorrow. We talked a little more last night when she came back from her run. She says her head is going 100mph all day about this and she still doesn't know what she wants. She doesn't want to talk more until she gets some stuff straightened out in her head. She fought me on the counseling thing again and I had to push her to get an actual logical reason. The best she could do was that she knows the theories and the questions, signs, templates type things that they are going to use. She thinks she'd be annoyed and isn't in the right frame of mind to have discussions about these things in front of me. I told her that maybe she should just go to have someone to talk to. She said NO. But I'm at least going to go. Who knows if it'll help but I don't see how it'll get much worse. I can't just sit around and sit in the dark for weeks. I'm no emo, but it hurts to sit around and fake normal while your whole life/family situation up in the air. I think that for any of a variety of reasons, your wife is afraid to go to counseling. I know the general templates that take place in counseling. Yet when it became apparent that my wife and I were having serious problems in our relationship, we found an amazing marriage counselor. That was a year ago and I can safely say that our relationship has never been better or stronger. (By the way, it took two tries. The first marriage counselor was clearly in over her head.) Going into marital counseling can be scary, maybe moreso if one has an idea of what it's going to take to be successful. However, a well-trained professional who is outside the situation/relationship, has the ability to see and hear things that you and your wife cannot and shine a light on them in such a way so as to give each of you a new understanding/view. It's hard work and sometimes painful, but well worth it. And by the way, I fully support your decision to go to counseling by yourself if your wife will not attend. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TDFFFreak Posted July 31, 2009 Share Posted July 31, 2009 I think that for any of a variety of reasons, your wife is afraid to go to counseling. I know the general templates that take place in counseling. Yet when it became apparent that my wife and I were having serious problems in our relationship, we found an amazing marriage counselor. That was a year ago and I can safely say that our relationship has never been better or stronger. (By the way, it took two tries. The first marriage counselor was clearly in over her head.) Going into marital counseling can be scary, maybe moreso if one has an idea of what it's going to take to be successful. However, a well-trained professional who is outside the situation/relationship, has the ability to see and hear things that you and your wife cannot and shine a light on them in such a way so as to give each of you a new understanding/view. It's hard work and sometimes painful, but well worth it. And by the way, I fully support your decision to go to counseling by yourself if your wife will not attend. +1,000,000 (Good words above) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Square Posted July 31, 2009 Author Share Posted July 31, 2009 I have to go to a jobsite pretty soon, but the short story is this. My wife went out for drinks with the other social workers last night because one of the girls is moving out of state and it was her last day (she had a whole 2 beers). Anyway, she came home and kissed me like, well like I have been kissed in awhile. She hugged me, starting crying and saying she was sorry, that she loved me, and that she'll do whatever it takes. We put the kid to bed and talked for a good hour or so. Everything isn't perfect but it is MUCH better than before. She actually talked about being angry about the way I acted towards the miscarriage (she wasn't blaming me, just that she held on to some stuff longer than she should have). She missed being closer to me (the dating thing) and that she couldn't picture raising our child if we weren't together. She was angry at herself, ashamed, and scared that this kind of thing could happen. She isn't thrilled to go to counseling but she definitely will. At this point I think its non-negotiable. I might just have her go talk to someone solo for a time or two before we actually have a session together. So, it was a pretty big step last night. I'd like to thank everyone for the help/opinion/2cents. I just needed to hear some opinions and I didn't really feel like talking to everyone we went to high school about losing the child and the difficulties afterword. Thanks fellas (and ladies).. you rock Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caveman_Nick Posted July 31, 2009 Share Posted July 31, 2009 That's good news Square Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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