I have no idea what I'm doing at this point.

[Bier Meister]

also, check to see if you have a mental health benefit via your insurance/health plan...and if not possibly an EAP that may include martial counseling. thews is correct in seeking one that you think your wife would feel comfortable with. typical plans= 20 visits per year with a minimal copay (vs. not having insurance). take action. get her talking to you and not someone else who might influence her to leave the marriage..... get her talking in front of someone neutral. i am not very religious, but one thing that could work in your favor by going through the church is that they lean toward saving not deconstructing marriages.

 

 

edit: her silence and resistance... likely, at least partially, a way to punish you.

Edited July 29, 2009 by Bier Meister

[Square]

i forgot or didn't understand ....all she was doin was talkin ta a guy from work....sorry ta refuel the fire but was pursing a relationship or was it just work chit chat.......

Kind of hard to tell. She told me there was another man and then followed that with nothing physical happened. Followed by she wants to fall back in love with me. Followed by fighting and then her needing space and not know what she wants. My god, this is a lifetime movie

 

Good ideas on the insurance. And I think I'll call our priest to see if he has a recommendation for a marriage counselor. If that doesn't work I'll try the website. Thanks for the ideas fellas. I'm going to tell her that I'm going to call around to book a marriage counseling session and then ask if she'd be willing to go. We'll see what she says...

[yo mama]

Long time listener, first time caller.

 

Square, it sounds like your wife is experiencing real problems that require professional treatment. While her actions/responses may seem illogical or irrational, which makes them incredibly frustrating and disturbing from your perspective, they're still real to her.

 

It also sounds like you overreacted and mishandled the situation, at least initially. It's time for you to be the rock for your family, which is a thankless pain-in-the-ass job that will grind you to a nub if you have to play that roll for an extended period of time. And that's precisely why the "wait and see approach" may not be your best play. First, your wife doesn't get closure on her issues, whatever they may be. Second, without professional help you guys may spend a lot of time and effort chasing symptoms instead addressing root problems. Third, a lack of communication between you two is very unlikely to be the solution to the lack of communication between you two.

 

Bottom line, for whatever reason, she talked to someone else instead of you when she needed to talk about something very important. I don't think characterizing her behavior as "cheating" will be a constructive approach. *We* understand how you feel, and *you* can vent to us until the cows come home. But *she* needs to you be the rock. The last thing you want is for her to go all Andrea Yates. My suggestion is for you to put your own feelings on hold (to the best of your ability) until her situation is stabilized. You might be "unhappy," but that's really a secondary concern if she's emotionally unstable. Triage the issues accordingly. Once you get her back from whatever precipice she's emotionally perched upon, then you can address your feelings.

Edited July 29, 2009 by yo mama

[Square]

Bottom line, for whatever reason, she talked to someone else instead of you when she needed to talk about something very important. I don't think characterizing her behavior as "cheating" will be a constructive approach.

That's kind of the thing I don't know if some of you get. She didn't say anything about the miscarriage. I don't know if she even told him it happened. She (while in crazy land) doesn't seem to put one to the other. IMO we weren't perfect but nobody is. We had been together for over a decade and things were going pretty well as we were growing our family. I have no idea if she can even put herself back into that place mentally. But the assumption that she leaned on this guys shoulder to talk about her feelings at a time of loss is exactly that. An assumption. She said something about they have so many common interests. I'd like to believe ti was just a sympathy thing... But the jury is out and I have no evidence.

 

I have kept my feelings in check since the initial freak out of last week. She was watching TV in the other room and I went over and watched some Ace of Cakes with her for a bit. I was calm and waited until there was a moment and said, "tomorrow I was planning to call around and see if I could get an appointment with a marriage counselor. Would you be interested in going?" She started to look annoyed and said, "I don't want to do that." I told her that I will probably go by myself then but that she is welcome to come if she changes her mind. About 3 minutes after that she put the remote down and ran up stairs to do something. She was up there until her friend called her to go jog and now she is out of the house (minus the kiss goodbye and with an annoyed look).

 

I'm trying but this woman sure seems like she doesn't actually want to try to fix this. I'm going to zone out and stop thinking about this for awhile.

[yo mama]

That's kind of the thing I don't know if some of you get. She didn't say anything about the miscarriage. I don't know if she even told him it happened. She (while in crazy land) doesn't seem to put one to the other. IMO we weren't perfect but nobody is. We had been together for over a decade and things were going pretty well as we were growing our family. I have no idea if she can even put herself back into that place mentally. But the assumption that she leaned on this guys shoulder to talk about her feelings at a time of loss is exactly that. An assumption. She said something about they have so many common interests. I'd like to believe ti was just a sympathy thing... But the jury is out and I have no evidence.

 

I have kept my feelings in check since the initial freak out of last week. She was watching TV in the other room and I went over and watched some Ace of Cakes with her for a bit. I was calm and waited until there was a moment and said, "tomorrow I was planning to call around and see if I could get an appointment with a marriage counselor. Would you be interested in going?" She started to look annoyed and said, "I don't want to do that." I told her that I will probably go by myself then but that she is welcome to come if she changes her mind. About 3 minutes after that she put the remote down and ran up stairs to do something. She was up there until her friend called her to go jog and now she is out of the house (minus the kiss goodbye and with an annoyed look).

 

I'm trying but this woman sure seems like she doesn't actually want to try to fix this. I'm going to zone out and stop thinking about this for awhile.

Understood on all counts. But don't discount the possibility that the miscarriage is a smoldering issue and that everything else is symptomatic. Of course, that's only a possibility. Another possibility is that, in addition to a good counselor (whom I would see even if my wife wouldn't go), you may consider discreetly reaching out to a trusted family/divorce attorney and start asking some "what if" type questions about how to protect yourself and your daughter in the event things degenerate beyond repair. It's not usually the outcome anyone wants, but it's not an outcome you want to be unprepared for, either. Just my two cents.

[Azazello1313]

this was a pretty good book we read, just about some general principles of marriage and communication, but some of it would surely be applicable to your situation. it's written by an episcopal priest, so it's got some religious underpinning, but by no means is it only applicable to "religious" marriages. it's laid out in a way the two of you could sort of read it together and discuss. might be worthwhile if she's just got some sort of block with respect to "therapy". take a look, if it seems like something you might find useful I'm happy to mail my copy out to you.

[NAUgrad]

Square, somehow you've got to get her to talk. The fact that she brought up another guy is in the picture changes everything physical or not. There is no way anyone can just stand by while their wife is spending more time with another guy than you. Sorry but it is physically and mentally impossible for you to stand by and let this happen. Somehow, someway, you've got to just get her talking. You don't know where she stands on anything and it sounds like your relationship sucks right now. Trust me, I've just worked through some of the same issues and the only way we made it through it was for me to get her talking and just listen. It solved 2 things. 1) She got a freebee vent. I said nothing, let her spill her guts right or wrong and just get it all out. 2) You then will know more about what's going on in her mind. It could be that she thought since you were the rock during the miscarrage that you just didn't care. (obviously not true) So she turned to someone else to just talk with which has turned into something more. Makes perfect sense that she's thinks that she has more in common with this other guy, she felt more comfortable venting to him instead of you.

 

Shut off the TV and calmly ask her if she is okay. She's going to say fine which is BS. Then say, that you love her and that you feel like somethings wrong. Tell her that your here for her and that you'll do anything to fix whatever seems to be wrong with the marriage. Just get her to talk. She needs to know that you care and your concerned for her. If she starts talking, no matter what crappy things she says about you just shut up and listen.

 

Hang in there.

[muck]

While listening, remember your body language and your facial expressions. You may have to control more than just your tongue.

[Kid Cid]

While listening, remember your body language and your facial expressions. You may have to control more than just your tongue.

Very good info here.

[TimC]

Throw some flour at her. She'll understand.

[twiley]

Ton of great advice, sorry to hear you have to go through this.

[SteelBunz]

I'm going to take a stab at something here.....from a woman's point of view. Bear in mind it's just an observation of some of the differences between men and women.....ok?

 

Paulzale said something very important. All his negative emotions came out as anger. By the same token....I think some of you who are advocating counseling think.....Oh...we'll just go in and talk about this one problem, get it out of our systems and everything will be fine. BTW...that's oversimplification.

 

One thing I've always found about counseling is that it can get VERY bad......before it gets better. Like breaking it all down to build it back up. Any little thing over ALL your years together will come flying out. I'm not saying it's good or bad.....just the way it typically goes. You'll both feel blindsided. And sometimes attacked....and for things you probably either don't remember or thought not one whit about at the time. Or...thought were already settled.

 

If she's that familiar with counseling and therapy because of her job, as you said......she's well aware of what could happen. No doubt about it.....women tend to store up little things that bother them over long periods of time. And they sometimes come out at weird times or exactly the wrong times. You all know what I'm talking about.....lol. You'll be arguing over forgetting the trash and WHAM...."And your mother NEVER thanked me for doing the entire Thanksgiving dinner 3 years ago!" Whoa.....where did THAT come from?

 

Some people said a very wise thing......go ahead and go first. And then invite her to come along. I'm not advocating or denigrating counseling at all. I've seen it work wonders.....and I've seen it go bad. Suffice it to say.....it's not for everyone. My apologies to those of you who are in the profession......but there ARE some out there (as in any profession) who only make things worse......ie. not great at their jobs.

 

You've been with her a long time, Square. Just don't expect a counseling session to center around one or two isolated incidents. It may start there.....but it won't end there.

 

Me....I generally like to vent and get out all the poison and heat before gathering the most important thoughts and presenting them in a calmer way to the person who needs to hear them. Maybe separate counseling......then couples counseling. And if you two do it with the same counselor, they'll have the whole picture and be better at directing a couples session later.

 

Just a thought. I totally understand not wanting to read anymore......LOL. When you get around to it.....hope this helps a little!

[Scooby]

well-said Ms. Bunz!! Women Huddlers are the best!

[Square]

I'm going to take a stab at something here.....from a woman's point of view. Bear in mind it's just an observation of some of the differences between men and women.....ok?

 

Paulzale said something very important. All his negative emotions came out as anger. By the same token....I think some of you who are advocating counseling think.....Oh...we'll just go in and talk about this one problem, get it out of our systems and everything will be fine. BTW...that's oversimplification.

 

One thing I've always found about counseling is that it can get VERY bad......before it gets better. Like breaking it all down to build it back up. Any little thing over ALL your years together will come flying out. I'm not saying it's good or bad.....just the way it typically goes. You'll both feel blindsided. And sometimes attacked....and for things you probably either don't remember or thought not one whit about at the time. Or...thought were already settled.

 

If she's that familiar with counseling and therapy because of her job, as you said......she's well aware of what could happen. No doubt about it.....women tend to store up little things that bother them over long periods of time. And they sometimes come out at weird times or exactly the wrong times. You all know what I'm talking about.....lol. You'll be arguing over forgetting the trash and WHAM...."And your mother NEVER thanked me for doing the entire Thanksgiving dinner 3 years ago!" Whoa.....where did THAT come from?

 

Some people said a very wise thing......go ahead and go first. And then invite her to come along. I'm not advocating or denigrating counseling at all. I've seen it work wonders.....and I've seen it go bad. Suffice it to say.....it's not for everyone. My apologies to those of you who are in the profession......but there ARE some out there (as in any profession) who only make things worse......ie. not great at their jobs.

 

You've been with her a long time, Square. Just don't expect a counseling session to center around one or two isolated incidents. It may start there.....but it won't end there.

 

Me....I generally like to vent and get out all the poison and heat before gathering the most important thoughts and presenting them in a calmer way to the person who needs to hear them. Maybe separate counseling......then couples counseling. And if you two do it with the same counselor, they'll have the whole picture and be better at directing a couples session later.

 

Just a thought. I totally understand not wanting to read anymore......LOL. When you get around to it.....hope this helps a little!

Well, I made an appointment tomorrow. We talked a little more last night when she came back from her run. She says her head is going 100mph all day about this and she still doesn't know what she wants. She doesn't want to talk more until she gets some stuff straightened out in her head. She fought me on the counseling thing again and I had to push her to get an actual logical reason. The best she could do was that she knows the theories and the questions, signs, templates type things that they are going to use. She thinks she'd be annoyed and isn't in the right frame of mind to have discussions about these things in front of me. I told her that maybe she should just go to have someone to talk to. She said NO. But I'm at least going to go. Who knows if it'll help but I don't see how it'll get much worse. I can't just sit around and sit in the dark for weeks. I'm no emo, but it hurts to sit around and fake normal while your whole life/family situation up in the air.

[tonorator]

She thinks she'd be annoyed and isn't in the right frame of mind to have discussions about these things in front of me.

 

you know, i've followed this thing through the pages and i don't get it. other than maybe not reacting the way she would have liked to the miscarriage, i can't see where you have done anything wrong here ... and i can't necessarily see how your reaction of being the strong one after the tragedy could be "wrong" in any way, but maybe not what she needed at the time. even with that, you guys are MARRIED. you have a CHILD. no matter what has happened, a husband or wife should not react by mingling with others outside the marriage. when one partner comes out and admits to having some kind of an emotional or physical affair with someone else and then refuses to talk about it, well, that's bs imo. i don't care what frame of mind she's in, she wouldn't be leaving the house until we had a down deep discussion. i'm locking the doors and forcing the issue. that's me.

 

but to my point, if you haven't done anything wrong, what's the point of you talking to a counselor alone? you can sit and hypothesize all kinds of reasons as to how you got here, but until she participates in your marriage, your guessing and overanalyzing. unless there are things you are not telling us related to other issues you are having, why go though that? no way i would.

 

if my wife needs space to figure out if she wants to talk to me about the affair she is having with another married dude and absolutely refuses to talk about it, i would then drive her to a hotel and inform her that she can come back to our home when she is ready to talk.

 

Edited July 29, 2009 by tonorator

[Kid Cid]

but to my point, if you haven't done anything wrong, what's the point of you talking to a counselor alone? you can sit and hypothesize all kinds of reasons as to how you got here, but until she participates in your marriage, your guessing and overanalyzing. unless there are things you are not telling us related to other issues you are having, why go though that? no way i would.

 

I have to believe that a trained professional would have a better take on things than some nameless, faceless folks on the Internet, no matter how well intentioned we may be. At the very least he may find out something about himself and at best save his marriage. I think the consequences of doing nothing are far more grievous than doing something, even if it isn't the 100% best thing to do.

 

FWIW Square, I think you're doing the right things here, especially since there is a child involved. Keep it up and good things will come.

[jaxfactor]

She was watching TV in the other room and I went over and watched some Ace of Cakes with her for a bit. I was calm and waited until there was a moment and said, "tomorrow I was planning to call around and see if I could get an appointment with a marriage counselor. Would you be interested in going?" She started to look annoyed and said, "I don't want to do that." I told her that I will probably go by myself then but that she is welcome to come if she changes her mind. About 3 minutes after that she put the remote down and ran up stairs to do something. She was up there until her friend called her to go jog and now she is out of the house (minus the kiss goodbye and with an annoyed look).

 

I'm trying but this woman sure seems like she doesn't actually want to try to fix this. I'm going to zone out and stop thinking about this for awhile.

 

 

i don't care what frame of mind she's in, she wouldn't be leaving the house until we had a down deep discussion. i'm locking the doors and forcing the issue. that's me.

 

 

Getting back to the other night when you watched a little TV with her.....I'm not against what Ton is suggesting here, in fact i think he has the right idea. I'd have just gone about it a different way.

This worked for me in the past. I would have just gone over and squeezed in right next to her. Sit right on her lap if I I had to. This might actually make her laugh, which is getting somewhere. If she squirms away from you, then try it again. Only this time wrap your arms around her and give her the biggest hug you can. If this seems to calm her down, give her a gentle kiss on the cheek or forehead and then start talking real softly. Say something like, " You know I really love you." Then just ask her to please listen to you for a moment. Then proceed to say something like, " Perhaps you thought I was being unsensitive after we lost the baby. If I came across that way, I'm sorry. I really am. I was just trying to be strong for you. In reality it tore me up too. No one is to blame, and I wish you could have just talked to me about it. I'm right here, honey and I always will be. Just please talk to me and you'll find that I'm a good listener...."

 

Don't mention the other guy she talked to. I'm not in the least condoning what she did, but she may have simply wanted a man's opinion. She may indeed have misconstrued your being strong as not caring. Try and reinforce the fact that you have a sensitive side as well and she should not be the least bit afraid to talk to you about any problems no matter how large or small they are.

[SteelBunz]

Getting back to the other night when you watched a little TV with her.....I'm not against what Ton is suggesting here, in fact i think he has the right idea. I'd have just gone about it a different way.

This worked for me in the past. I would have just gone over and squeezed in right next to her. Sit right on her lap if I I had to. This might actually make her laugh, which is getting somewhere. If she squirms away from you, then try it again. Only this time wrap your arms around her and give her the biggest hug you can. If this seems to calm her down, give her a gentle kiss on the cheek or forehead and then start talking real softly. Say something like, " You know I really love you." Then just ask her to please listen to you for a moment. Then proceed to say something like, " Perhaps you thought I was being unsensitive after we lost the baby. If I came across that way, I'm sorry. I really am. I was just trying to be strong for you. In reality it tore me up too. No one is to blame, and I wish you could have just talked to me about it. I'm right here, honey and I always will be. Just please talk to me and you'll find that I'm a good listener...."

 

Don't mention the other guy she talked to. I'm not in the least condoning what she did, but she may have simply wanted a man's opinion. She may indeed have misconstrued your being strong as not caring. Try and reinforce the fact that you have a sensitive side as well and she should not be the least bit afraid to talk to you about any problems no matter how large or small they are.

 

How could you not adore a man like this??

[muck]

How could you not adore a man like this??

 

Too much body hair?

 

Too much gas?

 

Picks nose incessantly?

 

...just a couple of guesses...

[MrTed46]

How could you not adore a man like this??

 

Are you asking the guys?

[Caveman_Nick]

Don't mention the other guy she talked to. I'm not in the least condoning what she did, but she may have simply wanted a man's opinion.

 

I really think many folks in here are jumping to the conclusion that Square's wife went to this guy to console her over the miscarriage. While this may be the case, It didn't sound that way to me at all. It sounded to me like he asked her if there was another guy in her life and she said 'yes'. I didn't hear any qualifiers about someone she turned to after the loss of the baby.

 

Square, I honestly think you need to ferret out the details about this. I don't think you need to be adversarial about it. I think you need to communicate with here that you are trying to figure out where things stand with your marriage. It's a very difficult situation when one person has all the knowledge and the other one is working on assumptions.

 

If she refuses to discuss it with you, I am kind of on the same page as Tonorator. Healing can't really begin until the wounding is complete. If she's not willing to at least lay the cards on the table as to where things stand and how they got there, then I think she should come back when she thinks she can, and in the interim it might be best if she were elsewhere.

 

Bear in mind this is my thought process of how I would want to deal with things if I were in your shoes, not necessarily an ironclad road map for you. We are of course different people with different ladies in our lives.

[tonorator]

Sit right on her lap if I I had to. This might actually make her laugh, which is getting somewhere. If she squirms away from you, then try it again. Only this time wrap your arms around her and give her the biggest hug you can. If this seems to calm her down, give her a gentle kiss on the cheek or forehead and then start talking real softly. Say something like, " You know I really love you."

 

is this bizarro world? she's having a freakin' affair. playful banter is not on my list of possible responses.

[paulzale]

Gonna speak in some generalizations here:

 

Men tend to want to solve, wrap their hands around it, minimize their hurt feelings, control the situation (negative view to women), get angry, fix it and move on.

 

Women tend to want to feel it, experience it, understand it, deal with it, let it run its course (men don't understand this), and then move on but remember it.

 

I think this is the simplification of their differences, if you try to force the situation now it will likely end up with you two separated, just my experience and opinion.

 

I speak from experience and don't think this other guy has as much to do with the miscarriage as he may have to do with other issues in your marriage that you may not be aware of, she remembers every disagreement or fight even if you have forgotten of believed you solved them.

 

I am glad you are going to counseling, I hope and pray that you have found a good one. It took me until my 3rd until I found one that worked for me and challenged me to dig and understand myself better. He happened to be recommended by my church, not part of EAP or my insurance plan, so it was costly, but well worth it!

 

She will have to lay it all on the table at some point, but you cannot force it. Trust me this will hurt greatly as Bunz suggested. My guess at why Mrs. Square won't go is that she will have to accept her failure and take responsibility, which will be very painful for her emotionally. She is probably figuring why do this if my marriage is failing anyways (not as straight forward, but the 50,000 foot view). She has fallen out of love with you (this is the Hollywood type love that doesn't really exist beyond 2 years of courting), she doesn't understand this and doesn't know how to get the feelings of in love back. She will use her knowledge of counseling as an excuse, she may see it as manipulation or weakness, but I shifted my thoughts (I used to think the same) to the side of "Am I a stronger man to admit my weaknesses, seek help or to be prideful and dig my heels in?" Pride is natural and easy for humans, it takes more strength to admit faults and deal with the underlying issues, again my 2 cents. If she does go, she will end up seeing you as vulnerable, with real emotions rather than angry outburst. She will come to understand that under the anger is hurt and pain that you are trying to minimize.

 

A lot of rambling for me, give her time, push the issue when you feel you must, but deal with your emotions now and support her the best you can. I pray that she comes around, but she may not. For me it took 4 months until I really pushed and then the marriage was over in a week, she moved out, filed papers and started her own life. I continued counseling on and off for a few years and go back on occasion when I am confused about my feelings. I feel that life is so much better now (way more complicated ) than it ever was!

Edited July 30, 2009 by paulzale

[TimC]

How could you not adore a man like this??

 

If I get to go to Vegas for WCOFF, I'm gonna get him good and licquored up and we going through the drive-thru chapel and Elvis is gonna marry us.

[Caveman_Nick]

If I get to go to Vegas for WCOFF, I'm gonna get him good and licquored up and we going through the drive-thru chapel and Elvis is gonna marry us.

 

Throw some flour on him.